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Author Topic: Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.  (Read 21323 times)

Neumms

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2008, 05:04:08 PM »
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'174714\' date=\'Jan 13 2008, 10:57 AM\']
And my problem isn't actually with just the possibility of multiple answers to a clue, it's that coupled with the enormous penalty for getting one wrong, or even for laying off a clue because you're not sure, only to have someone else swoop in and guess right.
[/quote]

You might be the one who had the simplest remedy, Matt, but every time I watch, I think the show would be way better if, in circumstances where the spoiler now picks a podium, he or she went automatically to the one behind. Then the player in the lead could lay off a clue, at least until he wasn't in the lead anymore.

TLEberle

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2008, 05:20:35 PM »
[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'174735\' date=\'Jan 13 2008, 02:04 PM\']You might be the one who had the simplest remedy, Matt, but every time I watch, I think the show would be way better if, in circumstances where the spoiler now picks a podium, he or she went automatically to the one behind. Then the player in the lead could lay off a clue, at least until he wasn't in the lead anymore.[/quote]Then why bother to spoil at all? If the scores are $6,000 apart, the person behind is screwed, no matter what.
Travis L. Eberle

clanky06

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2008, 12:21:36 AM »
At the beginning of Knockout (I was a contestant) Arte Johnson would recite a disclaimer about there being the possibility of other correct answers, but you must come up with the answer "we are looking for." The game was based on "which of these four things doesn't belong and why?" For example, RED BLUE YELLOW APPLE  would have APPLE the non primary color, but RED is also the only one with just one vowel, rather than two. I'm sure the MGC contestants are fully advised on the rules and conditions, and of the possibility that a Spoiler may win at the very end with just one correct answer, and if you didn't like any of this, then you don't have to go on the show. This reminds me of a Tic Tac Dough session with Dan Enright and a conference table full of potential contestants. He said that there had been considerable correspondence with a contestant who pronounced the French National Anthem "Mar-se-yay" and was ruled incorrect. This incident had lead to a rule that a foreign word may be either pronounced according to the foreign language, or how it would be pronounced in English. He paused, and then asked, "Now, is there anybody here who doesn't agree to this rule?" Of course, nobody said they didn't, because we all knew that if you did object, you weren't going to be a contestant!

tomobrien

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2008, 08:13:07 AM »
[quote name=\'clanky06\' post=\'174775\' date=\'Jan 13 2008, 11:21 PM\'] I'm sure the MGC contestants are fully advised on the rules and conditions, and of the possibility that a Spoiler may win at the very end with just one correct answer, and if you didn't like any of this, then you don't have to go on the show.  [/quote] Of course they're advised on it.  Doesn't make the game any less flawed, though.

rjaguar3

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2008, 08:13:04 PM »
[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'174739\' date=\'Jan 13 2008, 04:20 PM\']
[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'174735\' date=\'Jan 13 2008, 02:04 PM\']You might be the one who had the simplest remedy, Matt, but every time I watch, I think the show would be way better if, in circumstances where the spoiler now picks a podium, he or she went automatically to the one behind. Then the player in the lead could lay off a clue, at least until he wasn't in the lead anymore.[/quote]Then why bother to spoil at all? If the scores are $6,000 apart, the person behind is screwed, no matter what.
[/quote]

Well, pardon me for jumping in on this, but I think the "taking-the-podium-that's-behind" solution and removing the Crossword Extras might just fix these problems:

1.  Currently, the player who's behind is fighting an uphill battle, because the spoilers serve only to add money to the leading podium, greatly magnifying any deficit to be overcome.  This makes comebacks by the trailing player near-impossible without the help of a Crossword Extra.

If the spoilers must take the podium that's behind, then the podiums will tend to be closer together, because it is essentially four players against the leader.  This makes for a more exciting finish without needing any Crossword Extras.

2.  Under the current system, there have been many examples where a spoiler, who has been eye candy for the preceding ten minutes, has won on the last clue of the game, dethroning a leader who dominates except for knowing, say Pokémon.

Under the rule changes, it would still be possible for a spoiler to win on the last clue, but the podiums would have to be near-equal in score, reducing greatly the possibility.  Furthermore, it is now possible for a spoiler to jump in near the end and win the game by answering several clues to take the lead at the bell, rather than simply ringing in on the last clue.

3.  The Crossword Extras are the reason why players end up $6,000 or more behind.  Getting rid of them would keep the scores closer and prevent one clue being worth far more than the others.  Furthermore, removing the Crossword Extra would decrease the maximum total payout, allowing more money to be given away.  (I don't want mo' money, but $50 for answering correctly seems a bit cheap.)

PYLdude

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2008, 01:08:55 AM »
Quote
Well, pardon me for jumping in on this, but I think the "taking-the-podium-that's-behind" solution and removing the Crossword Extras might just fix these problems:

1.  Currently, the player who's behind is fighting an uphill battle, because the spoilers serve only to add money to the leading podium, greatly magnifying any deficit to be overcome.  This makes comebacks by the trailing player near-impossible without the help of a Crossword Extra.

If the spoilers must take the podium that's behind, then the podiums will tend to be closer together, because it is essentially four players against the leader.  This makes for a more exciting finish without needing any Crossword Extras.

With or without the Crossword Extras, you can still have a player get out to a big lead and make it impossible for the others to get back in. That just takes the problem and leaves it with no chance to try and get back in the game. There's no good reason why the Extras should be taken out.

Quote
2.  Under the current system, there have been many examples where a spoiler, who has been eye candy for the preceding ten minutes, has won on the last clue of the game, dethroning a leader who dominates except for knowing, say Pokémon.

Under the rule changes, it would still be possible for a spoiler to win on the last clue, but the podiums would have to be near-equal in score, reducing greatly the possibility.  Furthermore, it is now possible for a spoiler to jump in near the end and win the game by answering several clues to take the lead at the bell, rather than simply ringing in on the last clue.

Your solution doesn't help matters at all. And besides, if the possibility still exists even in your solution it doesn't matter WHAT happens, then your solution, sorry to say really isn't much of one.

Quote
3.  The Crossword Extras are the reason why players end up $6,000 or more behind.

I guess playing a bad game doesn't count in your book.

Quote
Getting rid of them would keep the scores closer and prevent one clue being worth far more than the others.

No, it wouldn't. You still have to factor in the fact that someone can (and probably would) get on a hot streak and still put the game out of reach in the second round, basically rendering the third round meaningless.  

Quote
Furthermore, removing the Crossword Extra would decrease the maximum total payout, allowing more money to be given away.

How is more money allowed to be given away if the maximum total payout is decreased? You go from winning maybe $3,000 ($5,000 or more if you're solid enough or lucky enough) to winning $1,500 a game? And how much time would you really have for extra clues if you got rid of the Crossword Extras? Maybe enough for six, seven at the most? Is that really going to make that much of a difference?

Quote
(I don't want mo' money, but $50 for answering correctly seems a bit cheap.)

It is. So what? It's a three letter clue in the first round. Big deal. Doesn't harm the game.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 01:09:42 AM by PYLdude »
I suppose you can still learn stuff on TLC, though it would be more in the Goofus & Gallant sense, that is (don't do what these parents did)"- Travis Eberle, 2012

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rjaguar3

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2008, 10:07:49 PM »
PYLdude, you may not have known, but I created the changes based on two premises.

1.  If there is a dominant player, that player should win.
2.  Good players should win most of the time, but there should be the possibility for another player to earn a comeback.

These two premises go hand-in-hand.  On the one hand, if a clearly dominant player doesn't win, it basically makes the game a travesty.  On the other hand, if the better player always wins, it makes for a great sporting event, but it's terrible television.  So the catch is to straddle the line, so that good players win more often, but there's always a possiblity for a dark horse to make a comeback and win.

Under the current system, a leader who has answered every clue except the last one could lose the game to a spoiler who only buzzes in once on a clue he happens to know.  My system would make such last-second steals far less frequent, even though they wouldn't be eliminated.  (I don't think this is a major flaw any more than the fact that a person with $100 in Final Jeopardy! can still win the game if the two leaders tied for the lead bet it all and miss.)  Most of the time, a late spoiler will end up anywhere from several hundred dollars to about a thousand dollars behind in a competitive match.  That difference must be made up by answering clues, not by making a lucky spoil.

To that end, the reason why I got rid of the Crossword Extras was that they made and broke the game more than anything else.  When $3,000 or more is on the line, it's going to make a big impact on the gameplay, either putting a leader into an insurmountable lead or putting a trailer far out of contention.  Getting rid of these makes it harder to catch up, but at the same time, the deficits to be made up are far less.  Furthermore, removing the Crossword Extras makes the gameplay better by putting less value on a single clue.

With regards to the budget, since I've seen Extras converted for more than 50% (but I would like to see an actual count if anyone has one), that means that the Extra has a positive expected value for the show, which must be factored into the budget.  And I don't suggest making each clue worth $50,000, or even $500, but I think doubling the dollar values in Round 3 (like in the one week of shows in December 2007) could make the game closer without sacrificing the quality of play or straining the budget.

Unfortunately, there is no way to satisfy the two axioms above perfectly.  You'll either have unsatisfactory upsets or blowout games.  But I think the show could use a little tinkering to come closer to the center of this balance.

PYLdude

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2008, 02:12:14 AM »
[quote name=\'rjaguar3\' post=\'175072\' date=\'Jan 15 2008, 10:07 PM\']
PYLdude, you may not have known, but I created the changes based on two premises.

1.  If there is a dominant player, that player should win.
2.  Good players should win most of the time, but there should be the possibility for another player to earn a comeback.

These two premises go hand-in-hand.  On the one hand, if a clearly dominant player doesn't win, it basically makes the game a travesty.  On the other hand, if the better player always wins, it makes for a great sporting event, but it's terrible television.  So the catch is to straddle the line, so that good players win more often, but there's always a possiblity for a dark horse to make a comeback and win.[/quote]

This much I agree with.

Quote
Under the current system, a leader who has answered every clue except the last one could lose the game to a spoiler who only buzzes in once on a clue he happens to know.  My system would make such last-second steals far less frequent, even though they wouldn't be eliminated.  (I don't think this is a major flaw any more than the fact that a person with $100 in Final Jeopardy! can still win the game if the two leaders tied for the lead bet it all and miss.)  Most of the time, a late spoiler will end up anywhere from several hundred dollars to about a thousand dollars behind in a competitive match.  That difference must be made up by answering clues, not by making a lucky spoil.

Your solution, while I appreciate the effort you put behind it, is equivalent to turning the spoilers into cardboard cutouts for lack of a better term. Everyone agrees that the last-second spoils are a problem. It bugs me, and I actually am a big fan of the show. But what's the point of having a spoiler system if that can't happen (the way it's set up now, that is)? They're not called the second-bests or the trailers.

Quote
To that end, the reason why I got rid of the Crossword Extras was that they made and broke the game more than anything else.

And that's PRECISELY WHAT THEY'RE DESIGNED TO DO. Just like the Daily Doubles on Jeopardy. Would you advocate removing those?

Quote
When $3,000 or more is on the line, it's going to make a big impact on the gameplay, either putting a leader into an insurmountable lead or putting a trailer far out of contention.

But a leader typically isn't going to bet enough to where losing money is a problem. If the leader's secure enough in front, he/she is going to play conservatively and not be reckless unless they're uncompromisingly greedy. And maybe a trailer would be put far out of contention, but if you're that far out of the game, wouldn't you try whatever you could to get back in? I mean, if you had $500 and your opponent was more than $2K or $3K ahead, are you going to bet $500 or less, or are you going to try and get back in the game if the situation calls for it?

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Getting rid of these makes it harder to catch up, but at the same time, the deficits to be made up are far less.

It still doesn't stop any player from jumping out to a huge lead and rendering the final round moot. Plus you're assuming too much that the trailing player is going to get a decent shot to come back, and that's not guaranteed.

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Furthermore, removing the Crossword Extras makes the gameplay better by putting less value on a single clue.

The impact to the gameplay, as far as I'm concerned, would be minimal at best and not enough to judge one way or another.

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I don't suggest making each clue worth $50,000, or even $500

Agreed, because that's ridiculous.

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but I think doubling the dollar values in Round 3 (like in the one week of shows in December 2007) could make the game closer without sacrificing the quality of play or straining the budget.

I reiterate: it still doesn't stop someone, solver or spoiler, from running away with the game and making the last round of clues moot.

Quote
Unfortunately, there is no way to satisfy the two axioms above perfectly.  You'll either have unsatisfactory upsets or blowout games.  But I think the show could use a little tinkering to come closer to the center of this balance.

You could cut away the unsatisfactory upsets, but in doing so you also negate the role of the Spoiler in a way that's worse than the problem you're trying to solve in doing that. And, hate to beat a dead horse, but the blowouts will always remain.

It needs tinkering, but you need to work with what you have and not change things too radically. I believe your Spoiler idea does that. Your Crossword Extra removal idea doesn't as much, but to me it takes away any hope a player might have of catching up. And to me that's just unfair enough to cause a problem.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 03:06:14 AM by PYLdude »
I suppose you can still learn stuff on TLC, though it would be more in the Goofus & Gallant sense, that is (don't do what these parents did)"- Travis Eberle, 2012

“We’re game show fans. ‘Weird’ comes with the territory.” - Matt Ottinger, 2022

rbc101

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2008, 02:04:59 AM »
Well, I'm delighted to report that WNBC, New York has renewed "Merv Griffin's Crosswords" and that we will be back for a second year. There is no question that performance has been modest, particularly in NY and LA where we air head-to-head against both Oprah and Judge Judy, but or national number continues to grow and we saw some strong performances in many mid-sized and smaller markets in thr November book. We've received some very constructive feedback from viewers, focus groups and stations and I believe year two will be better than ever.  Thanks, Ritch Colbert, Program Partners

Robert Hutchinson

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2008, 05:24:56 AM »
[quote name=\'rbc101\' post=\'176396\' date=\'Jan 27 2008, 02:04 AM\']We've received some very constructive feedback from viewers, focus groups and stations and I believe year two will be better than ever.  Thanks, Ritch Colbert, Program Partners[/quote]
Well, whaddaya know.

I'm feeling optimistic at the moment, so I'm going to read "very constructive feedback from viewers" as "we're going to try to fix the spoiler system".
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tvwxman

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2008, 06:25:15 AM »
[quote name=\'rbc101\' post=\'176396\' date=\'Jan 27 2008, 02:04 AM\']
Well, I'm delighted to report that WNBC, New York has renewed "Merv Griffin's Crosswords" and that we will be back for a second year. There is no question that performance has been modest, particularly in NY and LA where we air head-to-head against both Oprah and Judge Judy, but or national number continues to grow and we saw some strong performances in many mid-sized and smaller markets in thr November book. We've received some very constructive feedback from viewers, focus groups and stations and I believe year two will be better than ever.  Thanks, Ritch Colbert, Program Partners
[/quote]
Congradulations on having your Second Season buried at 1:35am on 'most of this NBC stations'.

These local NBC O&O's getting saddled with this better pray that syndie Deal delivers quickly, otherwise both will end up buried in overnight quickly.
-------------

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tpirfan28

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2008, 10:47:05 AM »
[quote name=\'rbc101\' post=\'176396\' date=\'Jan 27 2008, 02:04 AM\']
Thanks, Ritch Colbert, Program Partners
[/quote]
Well hiya...welcome!  Nice to hear this show is getting a second season.  Yeah, the spoiler system is flawed, but I like the show more for the content anyway...I finally figured out why I don't do crossword puzzles.

And don't feel bad about the placement of the program...mine is up against Rachel Ray and Dr. Phil.
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clemon79

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2008, 02:39:59 PM »
[quote name=\'Robert Hutchinson\' post=\'176400\' date=\'Jan 27 2008, 02:24 AM\']
I'm feeling optimistic at the moment, so I'm going to read "very constructive feedback from viewers" as "we're going to try to fix the spoiler system".[/quote]
Your breath. Let me not hold it for you. :)
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toetyper

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2008, 05:27:09 PM »
my solutions.

have spoilers play FIRST 2 rounds  round 3 is a duel.


people in spoilers row at end of  round 2 comeback next day except for friday  new spoilers each week

no random crossword extras, you must answer 3 consecutive clues to earn the right to  bet; limit 2 extras per player  per round

TLEberle

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Crosswords Close to Sinking? Colbert Speaks.
« Reply #74 on: January 27, 2008, 05:40:42 PM »
[quote name=\'toetyper\' post=\'176414\' date=\'Jan 27 2008, 02:27 PM\']my solutions.

have spoilers play FIRST 2 rounds  round 3 is a duel.


people in spoilers row at end of  round 2 comeback next day except for friday  new spoilers each week

no random crossword extras, you must answer 3 consecutive clues to earn the right to  bet; limit 2 extras per player  per round[/quote]Those are certainly in the running for most random "fixes" that don't really fix anything.
Travis L. Eberle