Author Topic: TTD Beat the Dragon and S and P question (Read 12362 times)

Card Shark · « **on:** February 16, 2008, 10:24:11 AM »

How much influence did Standards and Practices have over the Beat The Dragon bonus game? I am sure that given it was Barry and Enright, they were being watched very closely. What kind of stop gaps were put in place to guarantee that the dollar amounts and dragon really were being placed random?

Neumms · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2008, 03:59:33 PM »

[quote name=\'Card Shark\' post=\'177976\' date=\'Feb 16 2008, 10:24 AM\']
What kind of stop gaps were put in place to guarantee that the dollar amounts and dragon really were being placed random?
[/quote]

Well, you did see the screens flash around and hear the "beep-beep-beep-boop-beep-boop" didn't you?

Just kidding.

dale_grass · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2008, 04:53:03 PM »

[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'177998\' date=\'Feb 16 2008, 04:59 PM\']
[quote name=\'Card Shark\' post=\'177976\' date=\'Feb 16 2008, 10:24 AM\']
What kind of stop gaps were put in place to guarantee that the dollar amounts and dragon really were being placed random?
[/quote]

Well, you did see the screens flash around and hear the "beep-beep-beep-boop-beep-boop" didn't you?

Just kidding.
[/quote]

That matches the assurances of randomness from Press Your Luck. I'm convinced.

Seriously, could computers do random (or pseudorandom) processes back then, or were squares drawn out of a hat?

clemon79 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2008, 05:29:51 PM »

[quote name=\'dale_grass\' post=\'178002\' date=\'Feb 16 2008, 01:53 PM\']
Seriously, could computers do random (or pseudorandom) processes back then, or were squares drawn out of a hat?
[/quote]
The TTD board was a bunch of ganged-up Apple IIs. I assure you that the Apple was capable of random number generation.

dzinkin · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2008, 05:36:47 PM »

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'178005\' date=\'Feb 16 2008, 05:29 PM\']
[quote name=\'dale_grass\' post=\'178002\' date=\'Feb 16 2008, 01:53 PM\']
Seriously, could computers do random (or pseudorandom) processes back then, or were squares drawn out of a hat?
[/quote]
The TTD board was a bunch of ganged-up Apple IIs. I assure you that the Apple was capable of random number generation.
[/quote]
As long as you didn't use the built-in "random number" generator unassisted, it was. If you were to write a program that used the random number generator to print ten random numbers in a row, then turned off the Apple II, turned it back on and ran the same program, you'd get the same ten numbers.

There were ways around this, of course, and considering that we didn't see the dragon in the same place at the start of the first bonus round each day, I think we can safely assume that the programmers assigned to Tic Tac Dough were aware of said workarounds. :-)

clemon79 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2008, 05:46:19 PM »

[quote name=\'dzinkin\' post=\'178007\' date=\'Feb 16 2008, 02:36 PM\']
As long as you didn't use the built-in "random number" generator unassisted, it was. If you were to write a program that used the random number generator to print ten random numbers in a row, then turned off the Apple II, turned it back on and ran the same program, you'd get the same ten numbers.[/quote]
If you don't seed it, sure. Which brings up two points:

a) if you're a coder in the late '70s and not seeding before your RND calls, what are you doing programming professionally, and
b) if you're shuffling the board for the very first time since system boot when you're actually rolling tape on a live game, what are you doing working in television?

snowpeck · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2008, 10:12:36 PM »

This is the website of the guy that actually wrote the software used on Tic Tac Dough. An interesting read, and an interesting career.

Greg

TLEberle · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2008, 12:08:58 AM »

[quote name=\'Card Shark\' post=\'177976\' date=\'Feb 16 2008, 07:24 AM\']How much influence did Standards and Practices have over the Beat The Dragon bonus game? I am sure that given it was Barry and Enright, they were being watched very closely. What kind of stop gaps were put in place to guarantee that the dollar amounts and dragon really were being placed random?[/quote]Couldn't they have done what the Brits do with their assignations of money to boxes: ping pong balls from a bag?

/Or Bovine Bingo. Whatever.

Mike Tennant · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2008, 10:09:41 AM »

Follow-up question: Even if the positions of the dragon and dollar amounts weren't strictly random (and I'm sure they were), so what? It's still up to the contestants to pick numbers. It's sort of the Hollywood Squares S&P out: The celebrities were not assigned questions and/or correct answers at random, but it was still up to the contestants to decide whether the given answers were correct, so the game wasn't rigged. I would think the TTD situation could only redound to the contestants' benefit if the placements weren't truly random because, as with Larsen on PYL, they could figure out where things were likely to be on the board and pick those numbers.

TraderRob · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2008, 01:52:33 PM »

[quote name=\'Mike Tennant\' post=\'178049\' date=\'Feb 17 2008, 11:09 AM\']
Follow-up question: Even if the positions of the dragon and dollar amounts weren't strictly random (and I'm sure they were), so what? It's still up to the contestants to pick numbers. It's sort of the Hollywood Squares S&P out: The celebrities were not assigned questions and/or correct answers at random, but it was still up to the contestants to decide whether the given answers were correct, so the game wasn't rigged. I would think the TTD situation could only redound to the contestants' benefit if the placements weren't truly random because, as with Larsen on PYL, they could figure out where things were likely to be on the board and pick those numbers.
[/quote]

Although it'd be harder to memorize patterns on TTD to beat the game, especially because you could still pick the dragon on the first call (as has seemed to be the case quite a bit in the first 6 weeks of shows), it looks to me like there were only a certain number of bonus board configurations. I don't know if anybody noticed on the first episode B-001, the two bonus boards in that show were identical. Wink even made a comment during the 2nd bonus round of the show that the dragon was in the same place as before. I've since noticed the same exact configurations on multiple shows. I'm sure our statisticians can come up with the number of possible combinations for the 9 squares, but after seeing the first 30 shows and 45 bonus games, I've noticed several repeats which shouldn't happen this soon if there are thousands upon thousands of possibilities.

Rob

clemon79 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2008, 02:10:16 PM »

[quote name=\'TraderRob\' post=\'178066\' date=\'Feb 17 2008, 10:52 AM\']
I'm sure our statisticians can come up with the number of possible combinations for the 9 squares,
[/quote]
Doesn't even take a statistician. 9!, which is 362,880.

Sonic Whammy · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:57:50 AM »

[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'178067\' date=\'Feb 17 2008, 02:10 PM\']
[quote name=\'TraderRob\' post=\'178066\' date=\'Feb 17 2008, 10:52 AM\']
I'm sure our statisticians can come up with the number of possible combinations for the 9 squares,
[/quote]
Doesn't even take a statistician. 9!, which is 362,880.
[/quote]
The math teacher is quite proud of you, Mr. Lemon. You do better with that than some of my own students. Most, thankfully, figured that lesson out quickly.

Seriously, I have noticed repeats in the patterns, too. I've found myself recently trying to predict the Tic, Tac and dragon once I've seen one of the T-keys. I'll probably try to chronicle the arrangements sometime.

lobster · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2008, 12:52:04 PM »

I don't know if anyone has really been hardcore enough to note stats on where the dragon has been on every bonus round, but since this was one of my favorite game shows during my childhood, I watched it enough times back then to note that the dragon seemed to --- WAY more often than not -- appear behind the number 6. Whenever someone called a 6 I would always wonder "does this guy ever watch the show?!" and then .. roaarrr... sure, it wasn't every time, but I would bet money the dragon was behind 6 more than any other number, and that it was behind 6 significantly more than 11% of the time.

/..he used to scare me.

Dbacksfan12 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:38:11 PM »

[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'178115\' date=\'Feb 18 2008, 12:52 PM\']Whenever someone called a 6 I would always wonder "does this guy ever watch the show?!"[/quote]Well, if the contestants were under the assumption that it was randomly picked, they wouldn't have any reason not to pick 6, now would they?

clemon79 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2008, 02:52:01 PM »

[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'178127\' date=\'Feb 18 2008, 11:38 AM\']
[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'178115\' date=\'Feb 18 2008, 12:52 PM\']Whenever someone called a 6 I would always wonder "does this guy ever watch the show?!"[/quote]Well, if the contestants were under the assumption that it was randomly picked, they wouldn't have any reason not to pick 6, now would they?
[/quote]
"The price ALWAYS ends in 7! Always always always! How stupid can they be?"