The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Ian Wallis on February 08, 2022, 11:07:06 AM
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1. I've been watching a lot of the show lately. This is something I've noticed in the past but have wondered about.
In the shopping era of the show, contestants could take the prize they were eligible for, or put their winnings from the game "in the bank". If they won again, the new winnings were added to what's in the bank and they could be eligible for a higher-level prize.
When a contestant lost, they kept any money won in the game. Jim always said "you've got the cash in front of you", or "you've got the $70 in front of you", or something like that. When a multiple-time champion lost, Jim would still list the prizes they won (fame games and such) and "the cash in front of you", with no mention of the previous bank. I always thought they'd be entitled to it. When something's "in the bank" was that at risk for forfeit - or maybe it was awarded to them and just not mentioned on the air?
2. I know this has been discussed previously, but I honestly can't recall if we ever reached a consensus on it.
Whenever the show's been repeated (USA, GSN, BUZZR, or GameTV in Canada), it's always been the 1985-86 syndicated version, or the 1988-89 NBC episodes. Are the others actually gone? I know that it was speculated that Reg Grundy has them all in his vault in Australia (but not Scrabble, which was on at the same time), but I don't know how accurate this is. It just seems kind of odd for a show that ran so far into the '80s to have so many episodes "missing".
Does anyone know for sure what the story is with those?
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I remember reading years ago that they were in fact entitled to the money saved up in their bank, but this was on someone's fan page as opposed to an official rule sheet. It wouldn't be too hard to confirm either way though, if you just checked the value of the prizes and other cash won against a defeated champion's total.
Regarding your second point, I was actually the source for this. In 2007 or so I asked the late Mitt Dawson on YouTube whether the episodes still existed. He explained that they kept only the syndicated series and the last six months, and AFAIK this is all that aired on USA. When he left Grundy in 1997, he said that they still had all the episodes archived on Betacam but he said that he highly doubted they were kept for much longer.
In addition, Vahan Nisanian messaged me with this a few years back:
I have some information about the status of the NBC episodes that I wanna share with you:
A fellow named Jason Cranmer contacted the director of sales from Fremantle, Alexandra Hedgewood, in the hopes of finding out if the daytime episodes were saved or not. According to the director, they have 883 episodes. This figure may or may not include the syndicated run. She further mentioned that no episodes prior to 1985 are in Fremantle's archives.
If you remember, the late Mitt Dawson, who worked for Reg Grundy Productions, Inc. from 1987 to 1997, said that they only kept the last six months of NBC shows (August 1988 to March 1989). Well, this latest development refutes what he said years before; the surviving NBC shows date back at least two years prior to that. It's still disappointing that they have nothing before 1985, though. Someone, somewhere out there, SHOULD still have those episodes in particular. I can't imagine them being gone forever.
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When a multiple-time champion lost, Jim would still list the prizes they won (fame games and such) and "the cash in front of you", with no mention of the previous bank. I always thought they'd be entitled to it. When something's "in the bank" was that at risk for forfeit - or maybe it was awarded to them and just not mentioned on the air?
I'm curious about this as well. Buzzr is currently airing episodes from the Winner's Big Money Game era. What I've cross-checked and discovered is that at the end of the speed round, the two losing contestants do indeed receive the money on the scoreboard, but the winner of the game does not receive the cash in front of them. It's never included as part of the grand total announced at the end of the show -- it just disappears into the ether.
So I wonder whether the same was true of unredeemed money during the shopping era. I suspect it'll be tougher to confirm than it seems, because Jim didn't usually give a running total of the champion's winnings from episode to episode. And once a contestant lost, Jim would usually just announce their total as something like "over $4,400" with the Chyron settling for the round number. If a contestant won one Fame Game prize that Jim didn't reveal the price of, then it becomes really difficult to break down their winnings dollar by dollar.
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I resolved it as the champion buying the prize of the day or winners board opportunity with the main game total.
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In addition, Vahan Nisanian messaged me with this a few years back:
No need to continue after saying his name - I don't trust his word farther than I can throw him.
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Oh, you shouldn't be throwing anybody with your bad back, Ed.
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Oh, you shouldn't be throwing anybody with your bad back, Ed.
(https://mattlynndigital.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/ferris-bueller-3-jeffrey-jones-as-ed-rooney.jpg?w=320)
/bravo
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In addition, Vahan Nisanian messaged me with this a few years back:
No need to continue after saying his name - I don't trust his word farther than I can throw him.
Had he been the one who reached out to Fremantle I'd have doubted it, but since he was referring to someone else who contacted them I took it as reliable. It'd be an odd thing to lie about, anyway.
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In addition, Vahan Nisanian messaged me with this a few years back:
No need to continue after saying his name - I don't trust his word farther than I can throw him.
Had he been the one who reached out to Fremantle I'd have doubted it, but since he was referring to someone else who contacted them I took it as reliable. It'd be an odd thing to lie about, anyway.
But when has "being an odd thing to lie about" ever mattered to Vahan, anyway?
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Mitt was as reliable a direct source as any, and his recounting of Sale's existence tracks exactly with what USA, GSN, and Buzzr (who owns the show) have all done when broadcasting the series. USA/Buzzr in particular, as GSN also skipped Summer/Fall '88 I believe.
At no point have any of these three networks aired a daytime show prior to July 1988, and USA and Buzzr's daytime Sale runs started at almost the exact same point despite a 25 year gap between them. Whatever exists in Fremantle's holdings of the daytime show prior to July 1988, if anything, is sufficiently incomplete or otherwise unsuitable for broadcast that they've never been rerun (nor has clips or episodes turned up on Buzzr's social, which at times makes a point of posting things specifically not airing on the main channel). If they're sitting around in some vault somewhere, not even Fremantle themselves have gone to the effort of turning them up (in spite of the posted rumor in an earlier post it's Grundy's vault, which they'd have rights to clear out.
As far as I'm concerned, daytime run prior to July '88 is gone except for home recordings, until evidence proves otherwise.
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As far as I'm concerned, daytime run prior to July '88 is gone except for home recordings, until evidence proves otherwise.
Which begs the question of "why wasn't NBC or Grundy saving their tapes?"
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I remember finding it odd that Sale was missing in large part but Scrabble wasn't, although Selchow and Righter's part ownership may have had something to do with that.
A clip of Mort Kamins' lot win is in the 15th anniversary Australian Sale episode, which aired in 1995; that tracks with what Mitt stated about Grundy's USA office still maintaining an archive. My only guess is that perhaps the masters were disposed of after the American branch of the company shut down. I was digging around some of his YT uploads to see if he said anything more specific than what I posted, but it appears all the comments he had posted have been deleted.
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Had he been the one who reached out to Fremantle I'd have doubted it, but since he was referring to someone else who contacted them I took it as reliable. It'd be an odd thing to lie about, anyway.
Let me clarify a bit - Mitt Dawson is reliable. Absolutely. I'd take his word. This Jason Cranmer? Never heard of him. Not to mention Vahan tends to believe nearly anything people tell him when it comes to the whereabouts of episodes.
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Had he been the one who reached out to Fremantle I'd have doubted it, but since he was referring to someone else who contacted them I took it as reliable. It'd be an odd thing to lie about, anyway.
Let me clarify a bit - Mitt Dawson is reliable. Absolutely. I'd take his word. This Jason Cranmer? Never heard of him. Not to mention Vahan tends to believe nearly anything people tell him when it comes to the whereabouts of episodes.
That's fair. Plus, if Fremantle does indeed have 800+ episodes, you'd think they'd have aired in reruns by now instead of the same package being broadcast on three separate networks (which Chelsea pointed out yesterday). Not only that, but it doesn't really give a satisfactory explanation of why certain episodes exist and others don't. Why would Grundy dispose of the first 2-3 years specifically? By the time they pulled out of the American market it was clear that they had rerun potential.
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Rerun potential, sure, but perhaps, and this is total speculation, they felt that 2 years of content was plenty for reruns without burnout. Also, the NBC shows had more questions about current events that would become dated. Didn't stop other shows, but could have been part of the thought process here. It's just too bad if true, since I feel 85-87 was when the show really hit its stride.
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In terms of #2, I'd argue "not proven" for anything other than what has been regularly rerun, in two separate regards:
1) Without having access to evidence backing the claim about Fremantle's holdings (such as a vault inventory), the fact that the claim there is second or third-hand at best (even without a questionable hand being one of those in question) makes a claim that there are definitely hundreds of additional master copies questionable.
2) At the same time, however, the fact that Mitt Dawson made a claim doesn't make it automatically so- apparently, he also made such a claim about production materials for the program that have since turned up, and, as someone involved in other aspects of lost media, one must take care with assuming all claims coming from the people involved with shows are accurate, as there have been cases of myths being spread by those in such positions.
Similarly, it's hard to say if the rerun evidence can be used as definite proof- note, for instance, how the Library of Congress's recent inventorying of Mark Goodson's donations has demonstrated runs of G-T programs that have never been rerun, or similar claims by some folk here (and ones who can be considered reliable on this subject) about programs long regarded as lost that were better preserved than previously believed.
As such, I suspect that, absent hard evidence turning up, that this is unresolvable on the basis of current information- and that things could change quickly, as the recent accounts concerning the preservation of Canadian game shows demonstrates.
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My only guess is that perhaps the masters were disposed of after the American branch of the company shut down.
Surely somebody would have snatched those up and took them home and put them in the attic next to their Atari cartridges. Is everyone in the office really just gonna call it a day while knowing those tapes — years of quality entertainment — are going out to the dumpster to be lost forever? It's mind-boggling if those are simply gone for that reason.
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Guys
I spent a year being paid to answer these questions along with Fremantle lawyers who were in the process of acquiring the rights at the time. I was in a position to offer money to run these episodes so I think they were more motivated than Jason Vahan or any other shut in speculator to be honest.
Every single fact that Mitt shared in his lifetime with you was accurate. What exists in BROADCAST quality is what you see. The syndicated episodes exist only because they were bicycled and dubs needed to be made on a regular basis as new stations signed on. The late 80s were the first time when discussions of library genre channels began and producers were urged to save masters they owned rights to for potential back end sales.
I know in 2022 many of you can’t fathom people were that stupid as to trash history and what you consider to be holy grails. Yes occasional gems emerge like 70s Squares and Jokers. But most of those in charge then were neither prescient or financially capable enough than say Goodson was to preserve history in a manner like you. And home tapings were simply not up to technological sniff to produce a copy that could be prepared for air. Believe me I argued this with tech supervisors at GSN constantly.
Rather than bitch and spend your lives chasing rumors from uninformed schmucks who would watch a grainy transmission from outer space in the hopes that a time lag transmission of Joe Garagiiola’ Memory Game may still be out there being consumed by a confused alien I think it would be wise for you to accept that building a home collection from traders you know better than I may be your best route. Expecting a network to be your personal reservoir for entertainment is short cited and frankly arrogant.
Film preservation buffs face the sane realities. Some history is simply lost.
I’ll tell you this much. I’m pretty sure Reg didn’t flush his masters down a toilet flushing 15 times.
Gay gezinta hate
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Expecting a network to be your personal reservoir for entertainment is short cited and frankly arrogant.
QFT. Excellent post as always.
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Expecting a network to be your personal reservoir for entertainment is short cited and frankly arrogant.
More people need to realize this. Thanks as always for your awesome contributions.
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I spent a year being paid to answer these questions along with Fremantle lawyers who were in the process of acquiring the rights at the time. I was in a position to offer money to run these episodes so I think they were more motivated than Jason Vahan or any other shut in speculator to be honest.
Every single fact that Mitt shared in his lifetime with you was accurate. What exists in BROADCAST quality is what you see. The syndicated episodes exist only because they were bicycled and dubs needed to be made on a regular basis as new stations signed on. The late 80s were the first time when discussions of library genre channels began and producers were urged to save masters they owned rights to for potential back end sales.
Thank you so very much for your answer- it's always good to have some light shed, and agreed on some of the other points.
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I echo everyone else's gratitude, Steven. Always look forward to reading your insightful posts.
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Something that occurred to me: does anyone know of any other game shows that were still bicycled by 1985-86 or later? I had figured that by that late date more shows would be moving to satellite transmission; I recall reading somewhere that the Griffin shows had done so.
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Given that network $OTC wasn’t kept at the time, I wonder what was done with the masters for “Time Machine” and “Hot Streak.” Neither has been rerun, although at least episode #44 of the latter exists as a master (posted by Winc).
Not to take the thread too far afield of $OTC, but I suppose the other long-running 80s network show for which we don’t have precise survival information is daytime WOF. Occasional masters exist as early as 1975-76, based on what the Paley Center has and what GSN aired in 2007, but do know *exactly* how much was kept continuously — if anything — other than vague suggestions that it was retained starting in the mid-80s?
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Not to take the thread too far afield of $OTC, but I suppose the other long-running 80s network show for which we don’t have precise survival information is daytime WOF. Occasional masters exist as early as 1975-76, based on what the Paley Center has and what GSN aired in 2007, but do know *exactly* how much was kept continuously — if anything — other than vague suggestions that it was retained starting in the mid-80s?
Eh, who know, who cares? It's not like GSN gives a rat's ass about running Wheel anymore, so short of private collectors leaking their material, we'll never see any of it.
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I believe Yahtzee and majority rules were bicycled in their days. Not sure about lingo
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And thank you for your gratitude. It’s nice to be appreciated
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I believe Yahtzee and majority rules were bicycled in their days. Not sure about lingo
Lingo may have been bicycled, as Channel 7 in Detroit aired it after it had gone out of production.
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Something that occurred to me: does anyone know of any other game shows that were still bicycled by 1985-86 or later? I had figured that by that late date more shows would be moving to satellite transmission; I recall reading somewhere that the Griffin shows had done so.
Re Griffin shows - I'm pretty sure that Wheel of Fortune was bicycled in its first year (1983-84). The Buffalo and Rochester stations were two weeks out of sync the whole season. When the second nighttime season started in Sept 1984, those two stations were now running the exact same episode, as was a Toronto station that also picked it up that year.
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I believe Yahtzee and majority rules were bicycled in their days. Not sure about lingo
Lingo may have been bicycled, as Channel 7 in Detroit aired it after it had gone out of production.
We got Break the Bank Rayburn/Farago on one of our local independents after production as well. Not sure if that was bicycling or desperation.
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Something that occurred to me: does anyone know of any other game shows that were still bicycled by 1985-86 or later? I had figured that by that late date more shows would be moving to satellite transmission; I recall reading somewhere that the Griffin shows had done so.
Re Griffin shows - I'm pretty sure that Wheel of Fortune was bicycled in its first year (1983-84). The Buffalo and Rochester stations were two weeks out of sync the whole season. When the second nighttime season started in Sept 1984, those two stations were now running the exact same episode, as was a Toronto station that also picked it up that year.
I think J! as well. I’ve seen convincing premiere dates for both shows, with various cities claiming to have gotten the first episode at varying points in September.
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Channel 12 in Flint started WOF in August 1983.
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As a general rule of thumb any show that came from a smaller syndicator that either did not contain barter ads or had a more limited nautical footprint were distributed by bicycling until the late 80s. The first season of Wheel started in well under 70 per cent of the country and BTB had a limited lineup as well. The King World of 83 and the Blair of 85 were definitely smaller players. Hope that helps?
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National footprint not nautical. Autocorrect sucks
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Given that network $OTC wasn’t kept at the time, I wonder what was done with the masters for “Time Machine” and “Hot Streak.” Neither has been rerun, although at least episode #44 of the latter exists as a master (posted by Winc).
Not to take the thread too far afield of $OTC, but I suppose the other long-running 80s network show for which we don’t have precise survival information is daytime WOF. Occasional masters exist as early as 1975-76, based on what the Paley Center has and what GSN aired in 2007, but do know *exactly* how much was kept continuously — if anything — other than vague suggestions that it was retained starting in the mid-80s?
I happened to find a partial answer to this while perusing another thread: http://www.gameshowforum.org/index.php/topic,11172.0.html (http://www.gameshowforum.org/index.php/topic,11172.0.html)
Apparently NBC didn't dispose of the tapes, but Griffin's policy at the time was to use/reuse.