The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: aaron sica on December 12, 2003, 08:28:54 AM
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I will admit, one of my favorite pastimes is to see someone post an idea about a new game show only to have Chris Lemon shoot it down :)
So with that, I thought I would try to start another discussion that I can see going places.
What, in your opinion, was the game show with the simplest rules that ran a long time?
And on the flip side...What was one game show that you would attribute its short life to hard-to-understand rules?
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[quote name=\'aaron sica\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 08:28 AM\'] I will admit, one of my favorite pastimes is to see someone post an idea about a new game show only to have Chris Lemon shoot it down :)
So with that, I thought I would try to start another discussion that I can see going places.
What, in your opinion, was the game show with the simplest rules that ran a long time?
And on the flip side...What was one game show that you would attribute its short life to hard-to-understand rules? [/quote]
I consider 3 years to be a nice run, so Press Your Luck. Also, Wheel of Fortune. On the opposite side of the coin, I'd have to nominate Whew! (the average Joe probably wouldn't understand).
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Well, if you combine the two runs together, Tattletales had a nice, simple format that lasted for close to 7 years. Ditto for Jeopardy, Match Game, and Password (with the exception of Password All-Stars). On the flip side of the coin, Hit Man comes to mind.....and to a lesser degree, Mindreaders.
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What, in your opinion, was the game show with the simplest rules that ran a long time?
Simple rules with long runs: "Wheel of Fortune", "Password", "Match Game", "Family Feud" and even "Newlywed Game" all come to mind.
And on the flip side...What was one game show that you would attribute its short life to hard-to-understand rules?
I'd have to agree with "Whew". Although I understood it perfectly, it would probably take the "average" viewer a while to figure it out. Still, it had a nice run of just over a year, so it was on for a while. (It's still my hope that we'll see this whole run again eventually -- I wonder if GSN would ever consider picking this one up?)
A couple of others that come to mind that would probably confuse the "average" veiwer: "Blankety Blanks" (because it was never clear who's turn it was going to be until Bill picked the next card); and "Winning Streak".
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Add to complicated ones both "Who, What or Where Game" and "Celebrity Sweepstakes," because let's face it, a lot of us can't do math.
Simple? The original TPIR. Most early panel shows.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 08:58 AM\']
I'd have to agree with "Whew". Although I understood it perfectly, it would probably take the "average" viewer a while to figure it out. Still, it had a nice run of just over a year, so it was on for a while. (It's still my hope that we'll see this whole run again eventually -- I wonder if GSN would ever consider picking this one up?)
[/quote]
"twould be nice to see Whew! again(a certain anniversary we unfortunately are commemorating today, besides the 80th anniversary of Bob Barker's birth, makes me think of that show).
As for more recent shows, Winning Lines and Paranoia had a bit more rules than most shows.
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Easiest-"What's My Line?" Most complicated, much as I liked it-"Now You See It." (1974-75)
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Simple: Hollywood Squares, either Rayburn-hosted version of Match Game, Concentration, Jeopardy!, WOF (though they've made it more complicated over the years with all the special puzzles, toss-up rounds, etc.), Tic Tac Dough, Card Sharks, . . .heck, practically every successful game show. If the rules are complicated, the average channel-surfing viewer just isn't going to follow the game.
Complicated: Trebek Double Dare, Whew!.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 08:58 AM\']
What, in your opinion, was the game show with the simplest rules that ran a long time?
Simple rules with long runs: "Wheel of Fortune", "Password", "Match Game", "Family Feud" and even "Newlywed Game" all come to mind.
And on the flip side...What was one game show that you would attribute its short life to hard-to-understand rules?
I'd have to agree with "Whew". Although I understood it perfectly, it would probably take the "average" viewer a while to figure it out. Still, it had a nice run of just over a year, so it was on for a while. (It's still my hope that we'll see this whole run again eventually -- I wonder if GSN would ever consider picking this one up?)
A couple of others that come to mind that would probably confuse the "average" veiwer: "Blankety Blanks" (because it was never clear who's turn it was going to be until Bill picked the next card); and "Winning Streak". [/quote]
I seem to recall reading that early in GSN's life, they wanted to pick up Whew, but Burt Sugarman wanted too much money; as if he had many other properties that could earn him some income.
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[quote name=\'Dsmith\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 09:37 AM\']
I seem to recall reading that early in GSN's life, they wanted to pick up Whew, but Burt Sugarman wanted too much money; as if he had many other properties that could earn him some income. [/quote]
C. 1996-97, VH1 aired reruns of Sugarman's 70s weekly rock and roll performance show Midnight Special. Sugarman is still sitting on whatever episodes of Whew! and Celebrity Sweepstakes and Wizard of Odds he might still have(GSN has the Wizard pilot as it was done in association with Columbia Pictures)
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[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 09:40 AM\'] [quote name=\'Dsmith\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 09:37 AM\']
I seem to recall reading that early in GSN's life, they wanted to pick up Whew, but Burt Sugarman wanted too much money; as if he had many other properties that could earn him some income. [/quote]
C. 1996-97, VH1 aired reruns of Sugarman's 70s weekly rock and roll performance show Midnight Special. Sugarman is still sitting on whatever episodes of Whew! and Celebrity Sweepstakes and Wizard of Odds he might still have(GSN has the Wizard pilot as it was done in association with Columbia Pictures) [/quote]
I can just imagine life at the Sugarman home. "Mary, I'm not coming to bed. I'll be in the vault watching my old game shows. (rubbing hands together) Bwahahha."
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Wow! 10 replies already....
Anyway, let me answer my own questions.
The game show with the simplest format that lasted a long time - Concentration. Concept is very simple - find a match, win the prize, solve the rebus.
The game show with the most complicated format that didn't last long at all - Maybe it's just me, but I never fully understood the rules to the 1976 version of "Break the Bank"...
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[quote name=\'Dsmith\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 10:37 AM\'] I seem to recall reading that early in GSN's life, they wanted to pick up Whew, but Burt Sugarman wanted too much money; as if he had many other properties that could earn him some income. [/quote]
I think it's safe to say that GSN would have been happy to pick up ANY game show product for the right price in the early days. "Too much money" is an extremely relative concept. "More than GSN wanted to pay" would be more accurate.
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[quote name=\'aaron sica\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 10:59 AM\'] The game show with the simplest format that lasted a long time - Concentration. Concept is very simple - find a match, win the prize, solve the rebus. [/quote]
Sorry to diasagree with the originator of this interesting thread, but a LOT of the other examples that have been given were much less complicated games than Concentration. Takes and Forfeits and "still your turn" and Wild Card matches and even understanding how rebuses work? There was just a lot more to Concentration than there was to the early panel shows, The Newlywed Game or especially The Dating Game.
Not to say Concentration was complex. The best shows usually are fairly simple at their core. It just wasn't the simplest.
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[quote name=\'aaron sica\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 08:28 AM\'] I will admit, one of my favorite pastimes is to see someone post an idea about a new game show only to have Chris Lemon shoot it down :)
So with that, I thought I would try to start another discussion that I can see going places.
What, in your opinion, was the game show with the simplest rules that ran a long time?
And on the flip side...What was one game show that you would attribute its short life to hard-to-understand rules? [/quote]
Jeopardy, Tic Tac Dough, Hollywood Squares, Joker's Wild.
They all have relativelyt easy ideas, it's just the questions that make them tough. I'd say that, and the strategy involved, but that's all on the contestant.
Cross-Wits is pretty simple, as is Family Feud
Complicated, I'd say "Go." It would be a fun party game, but it just looks like it's too much going on.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 11:41 AM\']
Tic Tac Dough, Joker's Wild.
They all have relativelyt easy ideas, it's just the questions that make them tough. I'd say that, and the strategy involved, but that's all on the contestant.
[/quote]
The questions on these shows were tough? Not at all. In fact, they seemed to be prepared for a 5th grader.
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[quote name=\'Dsmith\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 07:41 AM\'] [quote name=\'aaron sica\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 08:28 AM\'] I will admit, one of my favorite pastimes is to see someone post an idea about a new game show only to have Chris Lemon shoot it down :)
So with that, I thought I would try to start another discussion that I can see going places.
What, in your opinion, was the game show with the simplest rules that ran a long time?
And on the flip side...What was one game show that you would attribute its short life to hard-to-understand rules? [/quote]
I consider 3 years to be a nice run, so Press Your Luck. Also, Wheel of Fortune. On the opposite side of the coin, I'd have to nominate Whew! (the average Joe probably wouldn't understand). [/quote]
I would disagree with PYL or Whammy being easy (except for the difficulty of the questions, but that's not what we're discussing). If you take a passed spin and get "+ 1 Spin," the returned spin goes in the Earned column. I think that can make it a little on the complex side.
Agree with easy concept: Jeopardy! and most other straight-quiz games, MG 7x/PM, TTTT, WoF before the special rounds
Complicated: High Rollers when it had all the side games, Password All-Stars, $otC and any other show with side games, Whew! (a little bit)
There are a number of shows that I wouldn't list as "easy" because some of the judgments can be difficult, e.g.: Is "college" a match for "school"? Is there such a thing as a French potato?
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[quote name=\'Jay Temple\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 12:19 PM\'] I would disagree with PYL or Whammy being easy (except for the difficulty of the questions, but that's not what we're discussing). If you take a passed spin and get "+ 1 Spin," the returned spin goes in the Earned column. I think that can make it a little on the complex side. [/quote]
That's a good point. How often has Tomarken said, "Avoid the Whammy, you win the game" only to have that player do avoid a Whammy but not (necessarily) win the game because of picking up an additional spin? And, for that matter, how often did that player wind up actually losing (either by Whammying on that next spin or passing the spin and having the other contestant surpass his total)?
Doug
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[quote name=\'Dsmith\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 11:52 AM\'] [quote name=\'fostergray82\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 11:41 AM\']
Tic Tac Dough, Joker's Wild.
They all have relativelyt easy ideas, it's just the questions that make them tough. I'd say that, and the strategy involved, but that's all on the contestant.
[/quote]
The questions on these shows were tough? Not at all. In fact, they seemed to be prepared for a 5th grader. [/quote]
Okay...syndie TTD and TJW being exceptions. I don't know how difficult the questions on the 50s TTD were, but I do know the CBS TJW had some deep questions.
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Skipping to the other side of the pond, Countdown has had a heck of a run, with fairly simple rules (I've NEVER seen an ep. where they've been explained, although I'm sure it happened in the early days).
...and I'd say the $64,000 question had fairly simple rules (no lifelines to worry about, no knowledge required ;-)
EDIT: I know this wasn't rigged in the sense that 21 was, but it was certainly made "easier"
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The questions on these shows were tough? Not at all. In fact, they seemed to be prepared for a 5th grader.
The questions on syndie TJW and TTD could be pretty easy, but not THAT easy. Show me a 5th grader who can name a few Japanese cities with over a million people...
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[quote name=\'Jay Temple\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 01:19 PM\'] I would disagree with PYL or Whammy being easy (except for the difficulty of the questions, but that's not what we're discussing). If you take a passed spin and get "+ 1 Spin," the returned spin goes in the Earned column. I think that can make it a little on the complex side. [/quote]
Then you would be wrong. Answer these questions, spin, pass your spins, stop or whammy out. Stategy has nothing to do with the simplicity of the game.
Brandon Brooks
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I think the easy show that has lasted a long time is easy...
TPiR.
The harder show which didn't is a different matter altogether... ;)
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[quote name=\'starcade\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 06:14 PM\'] I think the easy show that has lasted a long time is easy...
TPiR [/quote]
You see, TPIR isn't really all that easy, which makes me wonder why it has lasted so long, at least in its current iteration. It ain't just guess the price; it's a lot more. I mean, it isn't rocket science, but all those mini games, some with complicated rules, like Temptation, Fortune hunter, etc. makes it seemingly unattractive to the viewing public.
Brandon Brooks
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I'd nominate Double Dare (Nick) for the easy list. Everything was pretty straight forward and it lasted a good 7 years on the network before going into years of endless reruns.
Joe
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I would have to say for the easy rules: Pyramid, Video Village, and Lingo (does three seasons on cable constitute a long run?)...as well as others that have been mentioned before.
But for complicated, I have always said there was one game show that was great, but didn't last because the rules were too convoluted, and that was Monopoly. If they could have simplified that, they'd have a winner. Strong runner-ups include Think Twice, History IQ (especially the bonus round), Winning Lines (Really especially the bonus round!), and Scattergories.
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[quote name=\'Eddie "Chiclets" McGee\' date=\'Dec 13 2003, 09:26 PM\'] I would have to say for the easy rules: Pyramid, Video Village, and Lingo (does three seasons on cable constitute a long run?)...as well as others that have been mentioned before.
[/quote]
Don't know how Video Village worked, but I couldn't say Lingo, and it's not just because I don't consider 65 episodes as a "season."
When I read the rules for the 1987 version, it took me forever to comprehend. Although the current version is a bit different, it's still a bit complicated. Put it like this, it plays simply enough, but it still loses points just because of the setup.
However, would we consider Millionaire as lasting a long time? That's nothing but 15 questions of increasing value (and difficulty), with some lifelines thrown in.
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I was really expecting Winning Lines to last, due to the Wonderwall's success, but I learned the home-viewer sweepstakes really, really, really put the brakes on the show, as stated at Loogslair.com.
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Easy: To Tell the Truth, Jeopardy!, the original Password.
Hard: Blackout (I never understood the rules myself, but I gave up very quickly).
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[quote name=\'Brandon Brooks\' date=\'Dec 13 2003, 01:11 AM\'][quote name=\'starcade\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 06:14 PM\'] I think the easy show that has lasted a long time is easy...
TPiR [/quote]
You see, TPIR isn't really all that easy, which makes me wonder why it has lasted so long, at least in its current iteration. It ain't just guess the price; it's a lot more. I mean, it isn't rocket science, but all those mini games, some with complicated rules, like Temptation, Fortune hunter, etc. makes it seemingly unattractive to the viewing public.
Brandon Brooks[/quote]
I'll give you Fortune Hunter might be hard, but is Temptation hard?
Here's a very good question...
Do you think TPIR would have lasted this long if they played the same 6 games every show? (with or without rotating them)
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Probably not. People would get bored.
As I stated before, Winning Lines is pretty easy, if you're a math buff. You don't have to be a total math buff, but you just have to be a plain math buff. No Calculus, Geometry or Algebra involved. Just plain basic math, right guys?
And it all comes down to your general knowledge and pop culture trivia on the Wonderwall. The only hard thing is when you're sitting at home, and the answers are scrolling back and forth, and you can't find the answer and its number before the player does. In the studio, it's easier. The answers don't scroll, they're right in front of you. All you have to do is find them and their numbers.
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[quote name=\'cmjb13\' date=\'Dec 15 2003, 03:39 PM\'] [quote name=\'Brandon Brooks\' date=\'Dec 13 2003, 01:11 AM\'][quote name=\'starcade\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 06:14 PM\'] I think the easy show that has lasted a long time is easy...
TPiR [/quote]
You see, TPIR isn't really all that easy, which makes me wonder why it has lasted so long, at least in its current iteration. It ain't just guess the price; it's a lot more. I mean, it isn't rocket science, but all those mini games, some with complicated rules, like Temptation, Fortune hunter, etc. makes it seemingly unattractive to the viewing public.
Brandon Brooks[/quote]
I'll give you Fortune Hunter might be hard, but is Temptation hard?
Here's a very good question...
Do you think TPIR would have lasted this long if they played the same 6 games every show? (with or without rotating them) [/quote]
I'm gonna say a) no. and b) the show wouldn't have worked anyhow. Plinko, for one, would have lost all suspense - that roar that you hear from the audience when Johnny/Rod/Burton/Randy says that you're going to play for $50,000 would be ruined if you knew exactly when it was going to happen every show.
On the other hand, it would give me time to switch to something else for a few minutes if I knew when Any Number was going to be played :-)
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[quote name=\'tommycharles\' date=\'Dec 15 2003, 03:47 PM\']Plinko, for one, would have lost all suspense - that roar that you hear from the audience when Johnny/Rod/Burton/Randy says that you're going to play for $50,000 would be ruined if you knew exactly when it was going to happen every show.[/quote]
You forgot Paul Boland.
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[quote name=\'cmjb13\' date=\'Dec 15 2003, 03:56 PM\']You forgot Paul Boland.[/quote]
An unexpected flash of civility is keeping me from posting the appropriate reply to this. :)
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[quote name=\'Robert Hutchinson\' date=\'Dec 16 2003, 03:02 AM\'] [quote name=\'cmjb13\' date=\'Dec 15 2003, 03:56 PM\']You forgot Paul Boland.[/quote]
An unexpected flash of civility is keeping me from posting the appropriate reply to this. :) [/quote]
Heck, he forgot Gene WOod, Bob Hilton, and Rich Jeffreys(and Daniel ROsen, the Vegas TPIR live announcer, who has IIRC announced some shows that will air next month)
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How long did "Complicadismo" last on Mexican TV? There was a clip of it on the '84 Carl Reiner special where players had to pick up marbles while wearing boxing gloves.
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[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Dec 16 2003, 07:18 AM\'] Heck, he forgot Gene WOod, Bob Hilton, and Rich Jeffreys(and Daniel ROsen, the Vegas TPIR live announcer, who has IIRC announced some shows that will air next month) [/quote]
Zach, the question you need to ask yourself is: did he truly forget, or does it just not matter that much?
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Dec 16 2003, 11:40 AM\'] [quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Dec 16 2003, 07:18 AM\'] Heck, he forgot Gene WOod, Bob Hilton, and Rich Jeffreys(and Daniel ROsen, the Vegas TPIR live announcer, who has IIRC announced some shows that will air next month) [/quote]
Zach, the question you need to ask yourself is: did he truly forget, or does it just not matter that much? [/quote]
It's odd that not one of the responses to my post add to or offer opinion on the original question of whether TPiR would still be running today if it had the same games each day.
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[quote name=\'Brandon Brooks\' date=\'Dec 13 2003, 01:11 AM\'][quote name=\'starcade\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 06:14 PM\'] I think the easy show that has lasted a long time is easy...
TPiR [/quote]
You see, TPIR isn't really all that easy, which makes me wonder why it has lasted so long, at least in its current iteration. It ain't just guess the price; it's a lot more. I mean, it isn't rocket science, but all those mini games, some with complicated rules, like Temptation, Fortune hunter, etc. makes it seemingly unattractive to the viewing public.[/quote]
It's the central concept that's easy to grasp--tell us how much this costs and you could win it or something else better. Some of the individual pricing games may be more complicated, but they all come around to the same basic concept, even if it's indirect.
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[quote name=\'tommycharles\' date=\'Dec 16 2003, 02:57 PM\']It's odd that not one of the responses to my post add to or offer opinion on the original question of whether TPiR would still be running today if it had the same games each day.[/quote]
1) That wasn't the original question.
2) This is a lightly moderated Internet discussion--it's not odd at all that the topic took a left turn.
3) No, it probably wouldn't still be running today, but since the idea from the very beginning was to rotate the pricing games and create new ones as time went on, I don't know that it's a very probing question. It's like asking whether Jeopardy! would be around today if it was a Q-and-A game rather than an A-and-Q game.
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You see, TPIR isn't really all that easy, which makes me wonder why it has lasted so long, at least in its current iteration. It ain't just guess the price; it's a lot more. I mean, it isn't rocket science, but all those mini games, some with complicated rules, like Temptation, Fortune hunter, etc. makes it seemingly unattractive to the viewing public
TPIR as a whole is complicated, but if you think of the show as a series of separate, very short game shows they're each simple and easy to understand (or they get cancelled... um, retired).
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 12 2003, 08:58 AM\']
What, in your opinion, was the game show with the simplest rules that ran a long time?
Simple rules with long runs: "Wheel of Fortune", "Password", "Match Game", "Family Feud" and even "Newlywed Game" all come to mind.
And on the flip side...What was one game show that you would attribute its short life to hard-to-understand rules?
I'd have to agree with "Whew". Although I understood it perfectly, it would probably take the "average" viewer a while to figure it out. Still, it had a nice run of just over a year, so it was on for a while. (It's still my hope that we'll see this whole run again eventually -- I wonder if GSN would ever consider picking this one up?)
A couple of others that come to mind that would probably confuse the "average" veiwer: "Blankety Blanks" (because it was never clear who's turn it was going to be until Bill picked the next card); and "Winning Streak". [/quote]
I'd have to agree with "Whew". Although I understood it perfectly, it would probably take the "average" viewer a while to figure it out.
So you are essentially saying that Whew never caught on because the "Average" viewer was too "stupid" to understand the game?
Or mabye it was canceled because it just was'nt entertaining enough to keep an audience.
Still, it had a nice run of just over a year, so it was on for a while. (It's still my hope that we'll see this whole run again eventually -- I wonder if GSN would ever consider picking this one up?)
Why would GSN buy a game show which almost no one outside of this group would remember and was a FAILURE to begin with?
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Why would GSN buy a game show which almost no one outside of this group would remember and was a FAILURE to begin with?
Failure, huh? I can think of many, many shows that had a shorter run than Whew! did. Of course, since I haven't seen a celebrity episode of Whew!, you probably think my opinion of this show is invalid as well.
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[quote name=\'Dsmith\' date=\'Dec 19 2003, 12:16 PM\'] Failure, huh? I can think of many, many shows that had a shorter run than Whew! did. Of course, since I haven't seen a celebrity episode of Whew!, you probably think my opinion of this show is invalid as well. [/quote]
Whoa, there, cowboy. No need to bring the Great Bullseye War into this. :)
That said, Rhudson's comment is of course moronic. GSN has aired PLENTY of shows that lasted their 13 weeks and died a quiet death. (Go comes to mind, and yet I'd love to see that again.) Trivia Trap wasn't exactly a raging success. Heck, what did we say, something like "Make The Connection" has a total of 12 episodes, period? Does that get a free pass just because it's old? Not hardly.
I'm not suggesting GSN overpay for it just to placate the diehards (because we know that will never happen), but if Sugarman screws up his football picks one week and needs to pay a large amount of money to a bookie or something, and the price is right (and I mean REALLY right), they could do much worse.
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Why would GSN buy a game show which almost no one outside of this group would remember and was a FAILURE to begin with?
BtB '76, Diamond Head, the original Chain Reaction, Pass the Buck, and Hot Potato, had shorter runs, yet GSN aired all of those...either way, however, I doubt they'll be willing to meet the obscene $$$ amounts Burt Sugarman wants in exchange.
Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby")