The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: GSFan on October 15, 2003, 11:36:45 AM
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We all know that Mark Goodson built an extremely successful production company. Of all his game shows, which ones did he actually create? Bob Stewart created TPIR and Password. Who came up with the concepts for G-T's other programs?
Does anyone know if a biography of Goodson was ever published?
David
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Other people on this board were closer to a lot of the action that I ever was, but the general consensus that's come up over the years is that Goodson didn't really "create" as such very many of his games at all (if any, actually). He's usually given credit for taking good game ideas and turning them into even better TV shows. Or at the very least surrounding himself with people who could do that for him and having the instinct to recognize when they had it right.
By way of comparison, look at Bob Stewart when he went independent. Sure, Pyramid turned out to be a company-making monster hit. Most everything else he did, however, tended to be clever ideas that we fans recognized as decent games but that the general public never really loved. Also, Stewart shows were notorious for tinkering with rules and formats after they had been running for a while. Had he still been making those formats for Goodson, half of them would never have seen the light of day, and the others would have been hammered out to something resembling perfection before they got on the air.
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[quote name=\'GSFan\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 10:36 AM\'] We all know that Mark Goodson built an extremely successful production company. Of all his game shows, which ones did he actually create? Bob Stewart created TPIR and Password. Who came up with the concepts for G-T's other programs?
Does anyone know if a biography of Goodson was ever published?
David [/quote]
STeve Ryan was responsible for Blockbusters, Puzzlers, and Spellbinders(the latter two of course unsold pilots), and I think maybe Trivia Trap as well.
CHester Feldman was responsible for Card Sharks
Jay WOlpert was responsible for Trebek Double Dare
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Monty Hall had some interesting information on the creation of a couple of well known Goodson shows in his book "Emcee Monty Hall." The book is long out of print, but in a nutshell, the creation of a game show generally is a group effort, with ideas brought to the table and refined by different people, so that no one person is the "creator," and sometimes the guy who first brought the idea to the table isn't properly credited.
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Stewart also created "TTTT"--the show that first got him through the door at G-T.
Bob Bach was considered the main force behind "WML?"--although there were a lot of fathers in that one.
Bob Noah is considered the creator of the original "Match Game" concept--but Jean Hollander Kopelman was the original producer and Ira Skutch and Bob Sherman (and Gene Rayburn indirectly) were responsible for the changes in format and tone in the 70s version.
The only show that you could probably say out-and-out was a creation of Goodson and Todman was "Winner Take All," the show that got them started.
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 11:32 AM\'] ... in a nutshell, the creation of a game show generally is a group effort, with ideas brought to the table and refined by different people, so that no one person is the "creator," and sometimes the guy who first brought the idea to the table isn't properly credited. [/quote]
Some game shows, mostly Nickelodeon's, had a "developed by" credit to go with the creator credit. One example: Make the Grade: one creator, five developers. "Creative consultant" and "executive consultant" also appear on other shows.
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 10:59 AM\'] By way of comparison, look at Bob Stewart when he went independent. Sure, Pyramid turned out to be a company-making monster hit. Most everything else he did, however, tended to be clever ideas that we fans recognized as decent games but that the general public never really loved. Also, Stewart shows were notorious for tinkering with rules and formats after they had been running for a while. Had he still been making those formats for Goodson, half of them would never have seen the light of day, and the others would have been hammered out to something resembling perfection before they got on the air. [/quote]
Which ones do you suggest wouldn't have made it to air? Was Pass the Buck a BASADA production? Would that have made the Goodson but?
Yours,
Thomas
who's surprised that PtB hasn't been resurrected in it's 1999 British format
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[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 11:05 AM\'] [quote name=\'GSFan\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 10:36 AM\'] We all know that Mark Goodson built an extremely successful production company. Of all his game shows, which ones did he actually create? Bob Stewart created TPIR and Password. Who came up with the concepts for G-T's other programs?
Does anyone know if a biography of Goodson was ever published?
David [/quote]
STeve Ryan was responsible for Blockbusters, Puzzlers, and Spellbinders(the latter two of course unsold pilots), and I think maybe Trivia Trap as well.
CHester Feldman was responsible for Card Sharks
Jay WOlpert was responsible for Trebek Double Dare [/quote]
I thought Jonathan was responsible for Trivia Trap?
Also, who made the decision to reformat TPiR in the 70s?
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[quote name=\'GS Warehouse\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 11:41 AM\'] [quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 11:32 AM\'] ... in a nutshell, the creation of a game show generally is a group effort, with ideas brought to the table and refined by different people, so that no one person is the "creator," and sometimes the guy who first brought the idea to the table isn't properly credited. [/quote]
Some game shows, mostly Nickelodeon's, had a "developed by" credit to go with the creator credit. One example: Make the Grade: one creator, five developers. "Creative consultant" and "executive consultant" also appear on other shows. [/quote]
I know the creator of a game show comes up with an idea but what do the people who developed the show do? And what's the difference between a "creative consultant" and a "executive consultant"?
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[quote name=\'kidsplash\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 03:30 PM\'] And what's the difference between a "creative consultant" and a "executive consultant"? [/quote]
About ten grand a year. :)
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Which ones do you suggest wouldn't have made it to air? Was Pass the Buck a BASADA production? Would that have made the Goodson cut?
Well, keeping in mind that I'm a huge fan of the Bob Stewart catalog, off the top of my head I think that Winning Streak, Pass the Buck, Blankety Blanks and Double Talk/Shoot for the Stars wouldn't have gotten out of the Goodson machinery in the form we saw them. Good ideas, bad execution. Eye Guess, Go, Three on a Match and Jackpot, on the other hand, were pretty well developed out of the box.
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Of some of the other Stewart productions, I thought "Personality" was a good concept (a two year run on NBC). However, even as an 8 year old, I wondered how "You're Putting Me On" got a green light. (Though it could have been an inspiration for the "What _____ Might Say" category on Pyramid)
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What a great thread this is turning out to be. Who thought of it? Oh, I did(blush)!
Matt, I agree with you. Whatever Mr. Goodson did, he had the ability to surround himself with talented people, take a good game and make it an even better tv show. His instincts were, for the most part, right on the nose.
I also agree with Jimmy Owen who stated that the creation of a game show is a "group effort". When I was in high school I created a presentation tape of a format which I had created (it turned out to be a class project). I came up with the concept, and the entire class contributed other things to the show; set, music, simplifying the game, etc. We came up with something good enough to submit to the networks, even if they all passed. It has to be a group effort. Whose idea was it to slap a piece of plywood on The $10,000 Pyramid?
Speaking of Pyramid, I too was a big fan of the Stewart catalog, especially Pyramid. Pyramid was the show that really grabbed me by the cohones, got me interested in a career in television and was the only game show on which I wanted to be a contestant. Of course, we all know what happened there. If I tried today, do you think I could get Lois Nettleton to say the word "go?" While I am having a rhetorical moment, I still say we hijack Bob Stewart and get him back to the PYRAMID.
David
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We certainly have a lot of authorities on the topic of Mark Goodson.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 08:54 PM\'] We certainly have a lot of authorities on the topic of Mark Goodson. [/quote]
Well, if this were an American History board, we'd have a lot of authorities on Millard Fillmore and the Gadsden Purchase.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 08:54 PM\'] We certainly have a lot of authorities on the topic of Mark Goodson. [/quote]
But Chris, as you worked for him in the 6430 Sunset days, I hope you'll correct any misconceptions and add any comments you feel appropriate. ;-)
I had a good number of encounters with Mr. Goodson, and know many other past employees. All I'll add is that he was a very, very complex man with aspects of his life that would make a hot page-turner. Professionally, the networks knew that when he said a show would be ready for taping, his word could be taken to the bank. His reputation with the network programmers of the time (Mike Brockman, etc.) was that the game would be fully developed in all details, and the staging would be fully planned. Nothing slip-shot or left to chance.
"Price" is still a work of art, 32 years later, with a good number of staffers who were with Goodson for many years.
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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[quote name=\'DrBear\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 08:13 PM\'][quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 08:54 PM\'] We certainly have a lot of authorities on the topic of Mark Goodson. [/quote]
Well, if this were an American History board, we'd have a lot of authorities on Millard Fillmore and the Gadsden Purchase.[/quote]
We'd even have a few who knew Millard personally, and others who are still in touch with him.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 04:17 PM\']Also, who made the decision to reformat TPiR in the 70s?[/quote]
A group decision, but it was obviously Goodson who made the final decision that the old format had to be scrapped (I recall that they tried to pitch the old format in around 1969 or 1970 but failed). With their names up front, Frank Wayne and Jay Wolpert had to be the most responsible, but this was a group effort as much as any other G-T show (considering that Imie Laine Canellli, an AP on "Beat the Clock" who didn't even move out to LA from the New York office until the late 70s, is considered the inventor of Grocery Game, one of the original "TPIR" games).
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[quote name=\'uncamark\' date=\'Oct 17 2003, 01:17 PM\'][quote name=\'fostergray82\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 04:17 PM\']Also, who made the decision to reformat TPiR in the 70s?[/quote]
A group decision, but it was obviously Goodson who made the final decision that the old format had to be scrapped (I recall that they tried to pitch the old format in around 1969 or 1970 but failed). With their names up front, Frank Wayne and Jay Wolpert had to be the most responsible, but this was a group effort as much as any other G-T show (considering that Imie Laine Canellli, an AP on "Beat the Clock" who didn't even move out to LA from the New York office until the late 70s, is considered the inventor of Grocery Game, one of the original "TPIR" games).[/quote]
This is all bullshit, Mark.
Not many people know this, but The New Price Is Right was devised by Bill Todman's lesser-known brother Sheldon. As there was great animosity between Bill and Sheldon, rather than taking the concept to his brother, Sheldon took the idea to his brother's competitor, Monty Hall. Seeing great opportunity, Monty and his partner Stef Hatos immediately optioned the idea on the theory that they could own not one but TWO merchandise shows. All they had to do was license The New Price Is Right back to Goodson Todman who would absorb the production costs while Hatos Hall participated in the profits. Well it just so happens that Monty remembered a guy he replaced on Video Village named Jack Narz, who knew veteran G-T director Frank Heller when Heller was a producer of USO shows for Horn & Hardart Productions. Heller, by now a literary agent, immediately put Monty in touch with Goodson's attorney, Rocco Rossi. Mr. Rossi felt that with the right kind of "persuasion" Mr. Goodson could become interested in the deal, but only on the condition that one of Mr. Rossi's "business associates", a Mr. Sposa, be given the emcee position. This shut Narz out of the emcee spot. Meanwhile, due to an antitrust action prohibiting one entity from owning two merchandise game shows, Hatos and Hall were forced to divest their interest in The New Price Is Right (sadly Monty had no connections in the Nixon administration who could intervene). When the show was pitched to CBS, Bud Grant immediately declared Mr. Sposa too ethnic, and that a groese shaygitz should be cast as emcee. Allen Ludden was the name that popped into everyone's mind, but Goodson felt he wasn't right for the show, so Barker was brought in.
Goodson also rejected Sheldon Todman's concept that every pricing game be played for Sarah Coventry jewelry.
See, and you thought you knew everything.
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So what you're saying is Mark Goodson was solely responsible for creating all his shows?
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Mr. Rossi felt that with the right kind of "persuasion" Mr. Goodson could become interested in the deal, but only on the condition that one of Mr. Rossi's "business associates", a Mr. Sposa, be given the emcee position.
Mr. Sposa would be Dennis James, yes?
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Mr. Sposa would be Dennis James, yes?
Yep...his real name was Demi Sposa, to be exact.
Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby")
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[quote name=\'ChuckNet\' date=\'Oct 18 2003, 05:11 PM\']
Mr. Sposa would be Dennis James, yes?
Yep...his real name was Demi Sposa, to be exact.
Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby") [/quote]
For those that don't know, Demi Moore's parents were good friends with Mr. James and named Demi after him....
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Wasn't his wife a hot young number named Ashton?
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[quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 16 2003, 04:44 PM\'] [quote name=\'DrBear\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 08:13 PM\'][quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 15 2003, 08:54 PM\'] We certainly have a lot of authorities on the topic of Mark Goodson. [/quote]
Well, if this were an American History board, we'd have a lot of authorities on Millard Fillmore and the Gadsden Purchase.[/quote]
We'd even have a few who knew Millard personally, and others who are still in touch with him. [/quote]
And, you'd be one of them, right? :)
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And, you'd be one of them, right? :)
Don't be sarcastic.
The above account is 85% fictitious. Frank Wayne's fingerprints are all over The New Price Is Right; it has elements of both LMAD and Beat the Clock, which was Frank's show. I suspect Jay Wolpert was brought in merely as a hired hand as he had no prior association with the company and thus would not be in a position to pitch an idea to Goodson. Wolpert's role was to pick contestants out of the line and to book prizes and games.
Read "The Box" for Ira Skutch's account of how Frank Wayne originated the concept behind Match Game. Better to hear it from Ira. If you asked Frank he would have told you he created Password. He'd also tell you he created oxygen, the continents and the laws of physics.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 19 2003, 02:50 PM\'][The above account is 85% fictitious. Frank Wayne's fingerprints are all over The New Price Is Right; it has elements of both LMAD and Beat the Clock, which was Frank's show. I suspect Jay Wolpert was brought in merely as a hired hand as he had no prior association with the company and thus would not be in a position to pitch an idea to Goodson. Wolpert's role was to pick contestants out of the line and to book prizes and games.
[/quote]
Duly noted.
Read "The Box" for Ira Skutch's account of how Frank Wayne originated the concept behind Match Game. Better to hear it from Ira. If you asked Frank he would have told you he created Password. He'd also tell you he created oxygen, the continents and the laws of physics.
He also might've said that he was really Mark Goodson, I assume. :)
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Nobody got the reference to Horn & Hardart.
He also might've said that he was really Mark Goodson
Frank didn't much like Goodson despite the six-figure Xmas bonus checks he received from him, and would never claim to be Goodson because Goodson created so very little. Goodson didn't create the Milky Way, penicillin or modern jurisprudence so Frank was free to claim those as his. We would have the Rossi theorem today if Pythagoras hadn't already put his name to it.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 20 2003, 12:50 PM\']Goodson didn't create the Milky Way, penicillin or modern jurisprudence so Frank was free to claim those as his. We would have the Rossi theorem today if Pythagoras hadn't already put his name to it.[/quote]
OUCH!
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Frank didn't much like Goodson despite the six-figure Xmas bonus checks he received from him, and would never claim to be Goodson because Goodson created so very little.
Anybody hands me six-figure bonus checks, they automatically rank high on my buddy list.
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' date=\'Oct 20 2003, 12:26 PM\'][quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 20 2003, 12:50 PM\']Goodson didn't create the Milky Way, penicillin or modern jurisprudence so Frank was free to claim those as his. We would have the Rossi theorem today if Pythagoras hadn't already put his name to it.[/quote]
OUCH![/quote]
Oh come now, you've heard hyperbole worse than THIS!
I happened to like Frank, like the way he would grumble about Goodson doing radio shows on television -- to Goodson's face! (Frank never got over the fact that Goodson didn't like Beat the Clock.)
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So Frank openly complained about Goodson doing radio shows on tv? Sounds like my theory holds....
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Your theory absolutely holds. When I was pitching games to NBC and others in the mid-80s, I was told that they put game shows on in the morning so that housewives could "watch" them while doing chores, and that they wanted games which were essentially radio shows for the same reason: that a housewife could listen to the audio portion and follow the game while doing other things. This would not explain shows such as Scrabble or Classic Concentration which required the viewer to pay attention visually.
That said, during my tenure at G-T we didn't develop games with this in mind; Puzzlers and Blockbusters both had strong visual elements, as did Beat the Clock.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Oct 20 2003, 12:50 PM\']Nobody got the reference to Horn & Hardart.[/quote]
Oh, I did--I lived in the Philadelphia ara as a younger kid and wanted to go to Horn & Hardart Automats, but my parents never wanted to take me to the ones in downtown Philadelphia. There was a Horn & Hardart cafeteria in one of the shopping centers in South Jersey (perhaps even the pioneering Cherry Hill Mall), but it didn't have the Automat machines, so it wasn't the same.
And now that I'm an adult, they're not around any more.
ObGameShow: Some of Frank Wayne's "mechanical" pie-dispensing stunts on "Beat the Clock" could've been inspired by an Automat (I know, I know...)