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We here already know about the 1972-75 Joker's Wild tapes (which were thought to be gone forever) being unexpectedly discovered at WCBS during a remodeling, as well as much of the original Hollywood Squares being found in a forgotten area at NBC Burbank. I could imagine the people at both places who found those treasures going, "HOLY MOTHER-(bleep) GOD TO HEAVEN!!!!"
Now I wouldn't be surprised if that same underground mine that holds much of the Carson "Tonight Show" secretly holds, say, the 1971-75 ABC "Password."
A few thoughts about missing master tapes: I guess most of us have wondered exactly what's in the network's storage vaults. Growing up, I always assumed everything a network aired they'd keep a copy of. It wasn't until I watched a few talk shows with game show personalities as guests that I realized that wasn't the case.
It's been widely reported that NBC erased many of their old tapes in 1978, yet certain shows from before that have mysteriously "reappeared" - such as the original "Hollywood Squares". Other shows to have been "found" include CBS "Joker's Wild" (although GSN was always thought to have the last year of this run) and "Spin-off".
I guess as long as a show was in production, their tapes must have been still around. Case in point: on the final episode of the original "Jeopardy", they showed a few highlights from earlier shows, so a good portion of the 11 years of tapes must have survived until that point.
Also, the last year of "Joker's Wild" was syndicated in 1977, which led to the revival that fall. When they had their first Tournament of Champions in late 1977, they aired clips of all the former champions they brought back, some going back as far as the first group of shows in 1972, so those must have existed until that time. It seems odd they'd disappear after that.
I find it kind of surprising that the producers who were best at saving their shows - such as Goodson-Todman, or Barry-Enright - would allow the networks to dispose of the tapes without getting copies of them. One wonders if all four years of "Password" still existed in 1975, or maybe the network started reusing them before the run was even over. Whatever happened to "Showoffs", or "The Better Sex"? For that matter, since Sony has the rights to Barry-Enright shows, where's "Hollywood's Talking" and "Blank Check"?
I guess even the best can slip up occasionally, but it just seems odd to me that so much of this stuff would just disappear, with nobody knowing it's whereabouts.
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My thought is that there must have been at least five tapes of every show at the outset. Master, a copy for Eastern, copy for Pacific and one backup on each coast. In addition, there was probably an aircheck for advertisers (which is why you sometimes see old ABC commercials on FF, for example. I'm of the opinion that no one wants to dig that hard.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 10:46 AM\']I guess as long as a show was in production, their tapes must have been still around. Case in point: on the final episode of the original "Jeopardy", they showed a few highlights from earlier shows, so a good portion of the 11 years of tapes must have survived until that point.[/quote]
Not necessarily. Some producers would save highlights to reuse without any intention of saving the original, complete shows. That's why you keep seeing a lot of the same early Carson clips (Ed Ames tomahawk, Pearl Bailey duet). The Tonight producers would save special stuff to use on anniversary programs, and when NBC made its great purge, those clips were all that survived of the first decade.
I spoke to a former contestant on Three on a Match who was so eager to get his appearances on tape he spoke directly to Bob Stewart about it. Stewart told him that for that particular show, they didn't keep the masters more than a few WEEKS before recycling the tapes.
The subject of finding original masters is far more complicated than you might think. There are certainly holdings that the owners of the shows know about but which we mere collectors can't access. There are also storage areas all over LA, NY and across the country that are stacked with unlabelled or mislabelled master tapes. Plus, as Jimmy said, there's a huge "why bother?" factor at work here. What good does it really do to a company's bottom line to finally discover that they've found the entire run of Blank Check? Even something with the potential for celebrity novelty, like the lost episodes of Hollywood Squares, proved not to have commercial viability on the only cable network that would have a reason to air them.
Face it, the number of people interested in unearthing forgotten game show gems isn't very large, and the businesses whose ancient product we find so fascinating aren't going to go out of their way to find this stuff for us.
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 09:27 AM\']Not necessarily. Some producers would save highlights to reuse without any intention of saving the original, complete shows. That's why you keep seeing a lot of the same early Carson clips (Ed Ames tomahawk, Pearl Bailey duet). The Tonight producers would save special stuff to use on anniversary programs, and when NBC made its great purge, those clips were all that survived of the first decade.
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From what I understand, any B&W clips you see of Carson come from kinescopes (as the original tapes were gone). So even those highlights weren't officially "saved." I read somewhere that the TV Academy had about 40 hours of color videotapes of 1960s-era Carson shows (which might explain why the "Carson gets massaged by two Japanese girls when Don Rickles ambles in" clip is in perfect, pristine color while the "Ed Ames tomahawk" clip is in grainy B&W [even though the shows aired months apart]).
Doug -- and the countdown to 1000 continues
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 07:27 AM\']... There are also storage areas all over LA, NY and across the country that are stacked with unlabelled or mislabelled master tapes...
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Bingo, Matt. That is the true story, and here's how it often happens.
Even when the tapes are labelled, the production company long ago ceased to pay the storage. Sometimes it's because it's the cheapest and easiest way to be done with tapes no longer wanted, sometimes it's because the person responsible for keeping track of such things moves to another job, retires or dies, leaving sketchy or no records of tapes placed is storage several decades earlier.
The storage facilities often keep the tapes despite the fact that nobody has paid for storage in years, sometimes hoping that the bill may ultimately be paid, or because it's easier to just keep the tapes where they are rather than box 'em up and dump them when the space isn't needed. Trying to locate the rightful owner of the product after years of mergers and acquisitions can be an incredibly time consuming issue that can result with a "so what" from the new owner when finally located and contacted by the storage facility. At best, it's an "asset" of dubious value.
The one person who deserves "props" for talking with librarians at storage facilities about mis-labelled tapes that have languished for decades is GSN's David Schwartz. As his employer, Sony has ultimately come to be the rightful owner of some of the lost material, and because he's passionate about the product, David is responsible for some of the best "finds" in recent years.
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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Jimmy Owen Posted Today, 10:02 AM
My thought is that there must have been at least five tapes of every show at the outset. Master, a copy for Eastern, copy for Pacific and one backup on each coast. In addition, there was probably an aircheck for advertisers (which is why you sometimes see old ABC commercials on FF, for example
That is what I would think as well, as to why I brought this up a few weeks ago about Password II. If Goodson-Todman preserved the majority of their properties, even preserving Winner Take All, Password II and a few others might just be missing. Also the argument comes up about the cost of video tapes back in the day. True they were probably more expensive than now, however a company like Goodson-Todman could pay for them. If you take all the shows from the time that G-T started (gameshows, non-gameshows) up to 1975, they (G-T) had tons of tapes stored in a vault, also a lot of their shows were syndicated at the time to, so it's not like G-T could get the tapes from the networks, those tapes had to come from out of pocket or the syndicator's budget.
Then you get, "Well ABC reused Password's tapes for Family Feud/The Better Sex". I still dont see how and why Goodson or even Todman for the matter allow such to happen.
Bottom line, personally, and I could be wrong, if you look at the CBS run of TJW, the NBC run of HS, and how for years many thought they were gone and now they are all intact, I believe that those missing Password tapes are intact too, but actually missing; as to what vault it is located in.
Wouldn't office files and documents at The Goodson Estate have the location of everything and where everything is located. Also could it be possible that the executive producer/producer/director of Password know where those things are. I would think they would have insight of where their work is located.
I would think that the producers/director of FF (Howard Felsher & Paul Alter) would know what and if their show was being recorded over another G-T property. At least Stu Phelps and Ira Skutch would be notified.
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 12:46 PM\']The one person who deserves "props" for talking with librarians at storage facilities about mis-labelled tapes that have languished for decades is GSN's David Schwartz. As his employer, Sony has ultimately come to be the rightful owner of some of the lost material, and because he's passionate about the product, David is responsible for some of the best "finds" in recent years.[/quote]
Oh, absolutely, props to David. (Who lurks here, BTW. Hi, David!) You guys would be surprised at how much of the rare stuff you've seen came from his legwork.
Of course, what you've seen is only a fraction of it. FINDING the rarities is one thing. But you've also got to convince the owner (or somebody) that it's worth converting the kines or 2" tapes or whatever obsolete format this stuff's on into something a little more modern. And it's not cheap.
Hollywood Squares is a good example. They found thousands of episodes, but only a small number of those have been transferred, the ones you've seen on GSN. Thousands more are just sitting there, found but not viewable, because no one's going to pony up ridiculous amounts of money to do the work without a market for it.
So that's sort of a third category. Stuff that we know about but can't see. A lot of syndicated shows would fall into that category, most infamously (as far as I'm concerned) Cullen's Pyramid.
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 01:36 PM\'] A lot of syndicated shows would fall into that category, most infamously (as far as I'm concerned) Cullen's Pyramid.
[/quote]
Have the rights issue been cleared about this? My recollection tells me the last time this issue was brought up, there was some mess with Viacom regarding the show.
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[quote name=\'Modor\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 02:41 PM\'][quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 01:36 PM\'] A lot of syndicated shows would fall into that category, most infamously (as far as I'm concerned) Cullen's Pyramid.[/quote]Have the rights issue been cleared about this? My recollection tells me the last time this issue was brought up, there was some mess with Viacom regarding the show.[/quote]
My point is that we know they're there, whatever the reasons for them not seeing the light of day. For other shows from the same general era, like The Better Sex, we don't even know whether they survive today.
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I guess another question might be what happened to the tapes over the years? If thousands of "Hollywood Squares" tapes were discovered, what about the other NBC games of that time frame, especially Heatter-Quigley's "High Rollers" - doesn't it seem logical that it should have been stored in the same place? If "Joker's Wild" and "Spin-off" were found together, what about shows like "Hollywood's Talking" or the original "$10,000 Pyramid", which were on the same network at the same time?
Or maybe over the years whenever they needed space, they'd pick one specific series to jettison leaving the others intact.
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Wouldn't office files and documents at The Goodson Estate have the location of everything and where everything is located
All we know is that GSN transferred everything from the Goodson library that they had. If "Password II" does still exist, it would seem even the Goodson estate doesn't know its whereabouts.
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Or maybe over the years whenever they needed space, they'd pick one specific series to jettison leaving the others intact.
2" quad tape is a relic of a bygone era. Nowadays the storage space is literally more valuable than the raw stock. You run a tape vault, you need storage space, you haven't heard from the production company in over a decade because the principals are dead, the heirs don't care and the company has merged, you haven't been paid during that time, there is little if any value to old tapes of Blank Check, and you need storage space. What would you do?
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Didn't ABC change some locations of some of its facilities in the 70s? I heard that old studios that had LMAD, and Feud as its clients are no longer there, or is it the studio that hosted $10,000 Pyramid and now there's an Elementary School there?
Wow, if GSn transferred what all G-T had then, maybe the rumors might be true about Password, however can it be confirmed though. If there's a confirmation from a very trusted source then maybe the rumors can be put to rest.
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There **are** a few extant episodes of the ABC Password, from 1972, 1973 and the well-circulated 1975 eps, but it certainly is true that the bulk of what may still be out there evidently remains pretty well hidden.
-Kevin
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Hollywood Squares is a good example. They found thousands of episodes, but only a small number of those have been transferred, the ones you've seen on GSN. Thousands more are just sitting there, found but not viewable, because no one's going to pony up ridiculous amounts of money to do the work without a market for it.
I find this a bit hard to believe. I mean, HS was an incredibly popular show at one point, right? I was surprised reading Peter Marshall's book and seeing the impressive list of talent that appeared on the show. Like what about a market for the shows with famous athletes? I mean Gordie Howe was on HS, Gordie Howe! With people like me starving for anything hockey related, I think there might be a market for it. Come on, if they think there's a market for My Big Fat Obnoxious Ratings Bomb.
-Greg
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[quote name=\'pyl85\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 01:11 PM\']I mean Gordie Howe was on HS, Gordie Howe! With people like me starving for anything hockey related, I think there might be a market for it. Come on, if they think there's a market for My Big Fat Obnoxious Ratings Bomb.
[/quote]
This just in: NASCAR pulls better numbers in the US than hockey. And I tell you this as a rabid hockey fan.
If there was a market for the old Squares, GSN never would have stopped running them.
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 03:59 PM\'][quote name=\'pyl85\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 01:11 PM\']I mean Gordie Howe was on HS, Gordie Howe! With people like me starving for anything hockey related, I think there might be a market for it. Come on, if they think there's a market for My Big Fat Obnoxious Ratings Bomb.
[/quote]
This just in: NASCAR pulls better numbers in the US than hockey. And I tell you this as a rabid hockey fan.
If there was a market for the old Squares, GSN never would have stopped running them.
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And they would've licensed more. Hell, they may've even had Marshall tape a disclaimer to run in front of the shows with the more un-PC lines to try to put those on. When you've got a hit, you run with it--and believe me, GSN would've run with it.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 09:46 AM\']A few thoughts about missing master tapes: I guess most of us have wondered exactly what's in the network's storage vaults. Growing up, I always assumed everything a network aired they'd keep a copy of. It wasn't until I watched a few talk shows with game show personalities as guests that I realized that wasn't the case.[/quote]
Hey, for all we know, these missing tapes could be in some other salt mine...
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 12:59 PM\'][quote name=\'pyl85\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 01:11 PM\']I mean Gordie Howe was on HS, Gordie Howe! With people like me starving for anything hockey related, I think there might be a market for it. Come on, if they think there's a market for My Big Fat Obnoxious Ratings Bomb.
[/quote]
This just in: NASCAR pulls better numbers in the US than hockey. And I tell you this as a rabid hockey fan.
[/quote]
Well, considering that the NHL is still in lockout mode for who knows when AND we have a little thing called the Super Bowl next weekend, yes.
But what about the ABC soap operas produced before 1979? Susan Lucci got a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame recently, and she's been on "All My Children" from day one. Unfortunately, whenever they show that early clip of her from 1970 (when AMC debuted), it's a B&W kinescope even though the show was broadcast in color. Much of their pre-'79 soaps -- including "A World Apart", which featured a much younger Susan Sarandon -- are gone forever, while ABC started saving their evening news on videotape in the mid-'70s after kinescoping them.
(BTW, "The Grudge" -- starring former AMCer and Sexiest Woman of 2004 winner Sarah Michelle Gellar -- comes out on DVD tomorrow; make sure you grab a copy and run...well, after paying for it first.)
Jonathan Allen
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[quote name=\'johnnya2k3\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 06:13 PM\']Well, considering that the NHL is still in lockout mode for who knows when AND we have a little thing called the Super Bowl next weekend, yes.[/quote]
No, work stoppage and Super Bowl aside, hockey has pulled horrible numbers over the last three years or so, despite absolutely wonderful playoff games.
But what about the ABC soap operas produced before 1979? Susan Lucci got a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame recently, and she's been on "All My Children" from day one. Unfortunately, whenever they show that early clip of her from 1970 (when AMC debuted), it's a B&W kinescope even though the show was broadcast in color. Much of their pre-'79 soaps -- including "A World Apart", which featured a much younger Susan Sarandon -- are gone forever, while ABC started saving their evening news on videotape in the mid-'70s after kinescoping them.
And what in the blue hell does any of this have to do with Hollywood Squares and why GSN didn't convert over more shows?
They tried it.
It didn't fly.
Game over.
Pat O'Brien.
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[quote name=\'johnnya2k3\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 08:13 PM\']Well, considering that the NHL is still in lockout mode for who knows when AND we have a little thing called the Super Bowl next weekend, yes.
[/quote]
As far I know, sports, by rating, go in this order:
NFL
NASCAR [Nextel Cup]
MLB
NBA
[these two may be switched]
I believe NASCAR Busch ranks 6th; and "The Insider" ranks 7th.
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There are also storage areas all over LA, NY and across the country that are stacked with unlabelled or mislabelled master tapes.
...which is what happened w/a certain 1971 ep of Dark Shadows...when the series was first launched in syndication after the network run had ended, it was discovered the plastic case holding what they thought was said ep actually contained a blank tape...given the circumstances, however, they made the best of the situation and re-created the ep via still photos and the ep's original audio.
And while I'd love to see more classic GS eps turn up in reruns, I know we're just a small portion of the general public...the bottom line is, it ain't happening.
ObGameShow: Dark Shadows was canned to make room for the 71 revival of Password.
Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby")
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[quote name=\'johnnya2k3\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 08:13 PM\'][
But what about the ABC soap operas produced before 1979? Susan Lucci got a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame recently, and she's been on "All My Children" from day one. Unfortunately, whenever they show that early clip of her from 1970 (when AMC debuted), it's a B&W kinescope even though the show was broadcast in color. Much of their pre-'79 soaps -- including "A World Apart", which featured a much younger Susan Sarandon -- are gone forever, while ABC started saving their evening news on videotape in the mid-'70s after kinescoping them.
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Doesn't Soapnet rerun Ryan's Hope from the 70s?
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[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 10:12 PM\']
Doesn't Soapnet rerun Ryan's Hope from the 70s?
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You are correct sir, they have aired them and still do, as far as I know.
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Many many moons ago, I interned at CNN in Washington. One of my assignments was to go through a pile of videotapes containing Reagan getting into or coming out of the helicopter on the White House lawn. If there seemed to be anything of importance (i.e. he did something other than say hi and wave at the reporters), I was to keep it. Other than that, we kept a couple of tapes from each season of the year, and pitched the rest. That took me about 10 or 12 hours. (Interns didn't get paid, by the way. And I loved interning there.)
My point being, there are hours and hours and hours and hours (repeat until bored) of stuff on videotape that are useful to somebody, but have little value to the vast majority of folks. And if Hollywood Squares, one of the biggest game shows of the '70s, didn't garner enough viewers to stick on Game Show Network, who's going to wade through four years' of Gambit episodes to try to sell the reruns of that?
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 02:19 PM\']I guess another question might be what happened to the tapes over the years? If thousands of "Hollywood Squares" tapes were discovered, what about the other NBC games of that time frame, especially Heatter-Quigley's "High Rollers" - doesn't it seem logical that it should have been stored in the same place? If "Joker's Wild" and "Spin-off" were found together, what about shows like "Hollywood's Talking" or the original "$10,000 Pyramid", which were on the same network at the same time?
[/quote]
Mightn't some of this depend on where the shows were taped? Most of the $10K Pyramid episodes were taped in New York, and from what I remember reading here, the roughly three weeks of extant episodes are from weeks taped in Los Angeles.
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[quote name=\'NicholasM79\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 09:14 PM\'][quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 10:12 PM\']
Doesn't Soapnet rerun Ryan's Hope from the 70s?
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You are correct sir, they have aired them and still do, as far as I know.
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They air it, and they only air from the beginning to about 1981 or 82.
ObGameShow: Ryan's Hope debuted July 7, 1975, the same day as Rhyme and Reason (and both were ABC). No, I don't need to know what other shows debuted that day.
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Let's not forget the other reason tapes of some shows may not exist: back in the 1960s, color videotape stock was notorious for deteriorating relatively quickly. (Remember the 2000th episode of Jeopardy! GSN aired once?) I remember someone at MT&R in New York mentioning that they had acquired a set of tapes of some series from the '60s (I can't remember which one, although it wasn't a game show), but the tapes were unviewable "as is" and they would have to get them restored somehow.
-- Don
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[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 03:06 PM\']Didn't ABC change some locations of some of its facilities in the 70s? I heard that old studios that had LMAD, and Feud as its clients are no longer there, or is it the studio that hosted $10,000 Pyramid and now there's an Elementary School there?
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The stage at the ABC lot - Stage D, and later Stage 54 - that housed LMAD, Family Feud and more, was demolished sometime in late '80's/early '90's. It was rebuilt on the same spot and is used for General Hospital. You can see before and after pictures of that stage here. (http://\"http://www.pharis-video.com/p1763.htm\")
ABC studio TV-15 in New York was demolished sometime approximately 1984/85, and the St. Thomas Choir School (http://\"http://choirschool.org/\") now stands on the site, with the same address - 202 West 58th Street.
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 11:46 AM\']Even when the tapes are labelled, the production company long ago ceased to pay the storage. Sometimes it's because it's the cheapest and easiest way to be done with tapes no longer wanted, sometimes it's because the person responsible for keeping track of such things moves to another job, retires or dies, leaving sketchy or no records of tapes placed is storage several decades earlier.
The storage facilities often keep the tapes despite the fact that nobody has paid for storage in years, sometimes hoping that the bill may ultimately be paid, or because it's easier to just keep the tapes where they are rather than box 'em up and dump them when the space isn't needed. Trying to locate the rightful owner of the product after years of mergers and acquisitions can be an incredibly time consuming issue that can result with a "so what" from the new owner when finally located and contacted by the storage facility. At best, it's an "asset" of dubious value.
The one person who deserves "props" for talking with librarians at storage facilities about mis-labelled tapes that have languished for decades is GSN's David Schwartz. As his employer, Sony has ultimately come to be the rightful owner of some of the lost material, and because he's passionate about the product, David is responsible for some of the best "finds" in recent years.
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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I'll go with that all the way, Randy. And of course, based on this, I'M personally hoping that someday, this random search unearths the mythical anomaly that was SECOND CHANCE.
And to think, if I had been a little more aggressive a few years ago, I might have discovered an ep of it... and I'm not kidding, either.
I consider my personal moment of shame in this genre.
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Jan 31 2005, 03:59 PM\']If there was a market for the old Squares, GSN never would have stopped running them.
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There are other reasons that shows get cancelled other than straight ratings. Is it possible that the show was skewing too old and advertisers were reluctant to buy on a show where remembering Wally Cox means you probably use Geritol for your tired blood and Viagra for your tired...er, well, you get my meaning.
If they had to pay more than they wanted for a show that wasn't getting them any more ratings than something they didn't have to pay extra for, then it would make sense for them to try to save the money.
I don't think GSN ever made their ratings for Squares public, but I doubt those for HS were that bad.
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[quote name=\'inturnaround\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 07:23 AM\']I don't think GSN ever made their ratings for Squares public, but I doubt those for HS were that bad.
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I do remember something to the effect that the premiere pulled a .5, which was an average rating (at the time) for prime time on the network. I doubt the show pulled any higher ratings than that.
Tyshaun
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I'm pretty sure I read on a certain game show site that Rich Cronin was happy with "Squares" performance after the first couple of months. However, since they only got 150 shows and ran them several times, ratings likely dropped a fair bit by the second or third run.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 08:55 AM\']I'm pretty sure I read on a certain game show site that Rich Cronin was happy with "Squares" performance after the first couple of months. However, since they only got 150 shows and ran them several times, ratings likely dropped a fair bit by the second or third run.
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They've rerun a smaller number of episodes of Robinson WL for several cycles the last two years, and Greed is in cycle eight or nine on weekends after a three year weekend run. WOnder if those shows' ratings have dropped due to overexposure.
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[quote name=\'inturnaround\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 08:23 AM\']There are other reasons that shows get cancelled other than straight ratings. Is it possible that the show was skewing too old and advertisers were reluctant to buy on a show where remembering Wally Cox means you probably use Geritol for your tired blood and Viagra for your tired...er, well, you get my meaning.[/quote]
Fair enough, but the reasons really aren't the issue. The issue is that a market doesn't exist for these old shows, so finding them is only one small part of the bigger picture of ever actually seeing them again.
To use a more popular example, whatever exists from Carson's Tonight show is famously stored in that great big salt mine. So what? Even for something as popular and culturally significant as that legendary series, it's unlikely that anyone's going to spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours to get all of them transferred.
The more I think about it, the luckier I feel that somebody actually went to the trouble of modernizing ALL of the G-T panel shows in the vaults. Even if, as Dave Mackey pointed out, the transfers were pretty poor by today's HD standards. Given the same opportunity to transfer classic Squares, the powers-that-be only dubbed a handful.
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Come to think about all of this, isn't there a WHOLE LOT of ABC gameshows from the 70s that are missing? Also could it be that a whole lot of shows from ABC period from that time are missing as well, they can include talk shows, varieties, soaps, and sitcoms.
ANd as a $50 follow-up, why in the world are cable channels in which their programming revolved around a particular theme, now show series from recent years. Example, TVLAND; a supposed spin-off of the Nick-At-Nite series but only 24/7 on its own network, now show stuff from the late 80s and 90s, when at first they only shows stuff from the 50s to late 70s? Sci-Fi, doesn't always show Science-Fiction programming. Heck, even ESPN doesn't show SportsCenter 24/7 anymore!! Dit-dit-dit--dit-dit-dit.
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[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 10:41 AM\']Heck, even ESPN doesn't show SportsCenter 24/7 anymore!! Dit-dit-dit--dit-dit-dit.
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When did they ever?
Doug -- and the countdown to 1000 continues (last time I type that)
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[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 11:41 AM\']Come to think about all of this, isn't there a WHOLE LOT of ABC gameshows from the 70s that are missing? Also could it be that a whole lot of shows from ABC period from that time are missing as well, they can include talk shows, varieties, soaps, and sitcoms.
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The only ones we know to exist in full are BtB76 and Dawson Feud IIRC. Other things exist in part like ABC Newlywed or Dating Games and $20K Pyramid(mid 1978-mid 1980).
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[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 11:41 AM\']Come to think about all of this, isn't there a WHOLE LOT of ABC gameshows from the 70s that are missing?
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Looking at game shows from between 1970 and mid-1978, with the help of friend Alliaume's list:
Blankety Blanks- Only one episode definately known to survive.
Password- Only around 15 episodes, mostly taped off-air by the UCLA media department.
Show-offs- One episode
Let's Make A Deal- Uncertain, as far as the ABC daytime ones go.
Hot Seat- One episode
Second Chance- Only the pilot
Better Sex-Uncertain
Split Second- Around a dozen, mostly at UCLA
Rhyme and Reason- Only the pilot
Newlywed Game- Survives, but most episodes apparently unairable
$10,000/$20,000 Pyramid- Only the last couple of years survive in full.
Dating Game- Survives
Big Showdown- One episode and pilot
Neighbors- Only one episode, at MTR (and that only because Andy Warhol taped it)
Break The Bank- Survives
The Money Maze- Pilot and one or two eps at MTR
You Don't Say- Two eps.
In short, only three ABC game shows of the era survive in full, and, notably, they are from two of the three producers (Barris and B-E) known for having higher-than-usual survival rates.
EDIT: Good heavens, I forgot about Family Feud!
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Doug -- and the countdown to 1000 continues (last time I type that)
You mean you actually TYPE that in every time? There's got to be an easier way than that!
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Blankety Blanks- Only one episode definately known to survive.
Let's Make A Deal- Uncertain, as far as the ABC daytime ones go.
Better Sex-Uncertain
Newlywed Game- Survives, but most episodes apparently unairable
Going on what GSN (apparantly) has, only two episodes of "The Better Sex" exist, with two additional (including the pilot) in the trading circle.
For a while it was rumoured that the entirety of "Blankety Blanks" existed, but we've seen no evidence of that.
When "LMAD" first went on GSN, I think it was reported that 1100 episodes still existed. If that's the case, at least *some* of the ABC daytime run has to still be around.
As for "Newlywed Game", GSN has aired about 40 of the ABC episodes - 8 from 1969, and the rest from the '72-74 time frame. They looked fine to me. There has been talk of "color deterioration", but I find it kind of odd that "Dating Game" from the same period exists in almost perfect condition (from what we've seen of it). GSN has aired most episodes from the late '60s to the end of the run. Could they have been stored in different warehouses?
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[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 11:41 AM\']ANd as a $50 follow-up, why in the world are cable channels in which their programming revolved around a particular theme, now show series from recent years. Example, TVLAND; a supposed spin-off of the Nick-At-Nite series but only 24/7 on its own network, now show stuff from the late 80s and 90s, when at first they only shows stuff from the 50s to late 70s? Sci-Fi, doesn't always show Science-Fiction programming. Heck, even ESPN doesn't show SportsCenter 24/7 anymore!! Dit-dit-dit--dit-dit-dit.
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It was natural that TVL and NAN had to progress along in time--and NAN is now defined as an all-sitcom service, with a special charge in its early hours to hang on to some of the kids watching Nick from 8 to 9. Most of TVL is still 50s, 60s and 70s, but they still can't air old shows just to air old shows--there has to be proof that there's an audience for them.
Sci-Fi has always aired horror/ fantasy and paranormal programming--it's always been considered that those genres are sister genres to science fiction.
And if people complain about ESPN, it's because they seem not to be airing a wide a swath of legitimate *event* coverage as they once did, in favor of made-for-TV events (even "World Series of Poker" could be considered that), scripted shows and movies and the seemingly ever-popular middle-aged-sportswriters-screaming-at-each-other shows, thanks to rights fees ballooning and worries about system operators revolting over high subscriber fees.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 12:22 PM\']
Blankety Blanks- Only one episode definately known to survive.
Let's Make A Deal- Uncertain, as far as the ABC daytime ones go.
Better Sex-Uncertain
Newlywed Game- Survives, but most episodes apparently unairable
Going on what GSN (apparantly) has, only two episodes of "The Better Sex" exist, with two additional (including the pilot) in the trading circle.
For a while it was rumoured that the entirety of "Blankety Blanks" existed, but we've seen no evidence of that.
When "LMAD" first went on GSN, I think it was reported that 1100 episodes still existed. If that's the case, at least *some* of the ABC daytime run has to still be around.
As for "Newlywed Game", GSN has aired about 40 of the ABC episodes - 8 from 1969, and the rest from the '72-74 time frame. They looked fine to me. There has been talk of "color deterioration", but I find it kind of odd that "Dating Game" from the same period exists in almost perfect condition (from what we've seen of it). GSN has aired most episodes from the late '60s to the end of the run. Could they have been stored in different warehouses?
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In order:
Until we find the GSN master catalog, we won't know for certain with TBS.
Seeing as how NO Bob Stewart pre-1978 daytime network game show has more than a relative few episodes surviving, it would be a major shock if "Blankety Blanks" turned up.
The rumor I've heard is that around 500 ABC LMAD (and two dozen or so NBC LMAD, almost solely of the prime-time run) survive. Assuming that this includes the entire ABC prime-time run (and it is clear that at least a few of those survive), that would mean around a season and a half or so of daytime LMAD (most likely the last season and a half) would survive. However, until I see the lists, this is purely speculation.
It is entirely probable that GSN "cherry-picked" the episodes in best shape (after all, who said that they all must have deteriorated?). The airing of the corresponding Dating Games would suggest that GSN would have aired more if they could, and the range of episode dates and the known practices of Chuck Barris makes it unlikely that he would have saved only a handful.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 11:16 AM\']
Doug -- and the countdown to 1000 continues (last time I type that)
You mean you actually TYPE that in every time? There's got to be an easier way than that!
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I can't put it in the signature, because there's no record of it once you decide to change your signature (it's not like the olden days when sigs were permanently embedded [for lack of a better term] into your post). Someone here (I think it was Kevin [whoserman]) had a signature paying tribute to Rod Roddy (it's since been changed). It was a little odd seeing that particular signature if you go back to his first posts here, which were in June 2003 when Rod was still alive. And it's not like I'm typing War and Peace; just a few extra keystrokes here and there. No biggie.
And hey, I've now joined the 1000 Post Club! (Of course, only 12 of them were actually good.)
Doug -- celebrating 1000 posts (see, just a few extra keystrokes--I could keep going and going and going. . . .)
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 01:22 PM\']For a while it was rumoured that the entirety of "Blankety Blanks" existed, but we've seen no evidence of that.[/quote]
Extremely unlikely. When Sony purchased the Bob Stewart library, some of us HOPED that it might mean seeing greater numbers of some of his lesser efforts, and we did get to see some isolated rarities and pilots, but it's looking more and more like they just didn't keep that stuff.
Speaking of pilots, the Blankety Blanks one survives as well.
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 01:24 PM\'][quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Feb 1 2005, 01:22 PM\']For a while it was rumoured that the entirety of "Blankety Blanks" existed, but we've seen no evidence of that.[/quote]
Extremely unlikely. When Sony purchased the Bob Stewart library, some of us HOPED that it might mean seeing greater numbers of some of his lesser efforts, and we did get to see some isolated rarities and pilots, but it's looking more and more like they just didn't keep that stuff.
Speaking of pilots, the Blankety Blanks one survives as well.
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I recently saw Matt's updated page on BB and it cleared something up for me. Back in 1983, ABC ran a weeklong series of vignettes celebrating their 25 years of daytime television. One of the clips was of Soupy Sales on BB. So for the past twenty years or so, I kept hope the show was somewhat intact. I have now concluded that clip of Soupy came from the pilot, rather than the regular run.