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I enjoyed reading Merv Griffin's last book this year, particularly when he recounted when how he sold his production company to a major studio (Columbia, since aquited by Sony) in 1986.
When I see how good 'Wheel of Fortune' and 'Jeopardy!' still look I think it all has to do with Merv's decision to turn his shows over to a major broadcasting company to ensure their longevity.
Here is where a major game show what-if comes into play. Suppose Mark Goodson had followe suit in the last years of his life, for instance afer the lack of breakthrough talent to 'Match Game' and 'To Tell the Truth' in 1991? Or maybe earlier, such as after the sucessful re-launch of 'Family Feud'?
While I think that the 'Price Is Right' would still look the same, I'd bet there would have been some better remakes over the years, and maybe the overall genre would be stronger today.
What do you think?
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Being a Japanese company, Sony is hampered by it's inability to own local TV stations in the U.S. It can never be a broadcaster, unless the company becomes American somehow. A Viacom or Fox or Disney or Universal can get instant clearance for their syndie offerings through their O&O's. I think the world is unfolding as it should. Fremantle is not a new company, they've been around for a long time and had a long working relationship with the Goodson company as well as most of the other game show producers in mounting overseas versions of American shows.
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 12:09 PM\']Being a Japanese company, Sony is hampered by it's inability to own local TV stations in the U.S. It can never be a broadcaster, unless the company becomes American somehow. A Viacom or Fox or Disney or Universal can get instant clearance for their syndie offerings through their O&O's.
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Well Fremantle is no better poised to get clearance than Sony would be. Fremantle is not a broadcaster. They don't own any more local TV stations than Sony does. They all have the same obstacles to deal with. I think the original poster was making the point that Sony produces a quality product. Fremantles standards typically have not been as high for their game show offerings. (Price excluded). After seeing how Fremantle mangled many remakes.... I would have much rather have seen Sony in control. If they handled things nearly as well as they have with Wheel and Jeopardy, then I think the Game Show world would of been a much happier place Today.
John
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[quote name=\'Skynet74\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 12:34 PM\']After seeing how Fremantle mangled many remakes.... [/quote]
What shows has Fremantle mangled? I thought that TTTT, CS, etc. were all done by Pearson.
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[quote name=\'Dsmith\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 01:22 PM\'][quote name=\'Skynet74\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 12:34 PM\']After seeing how Fremantle mangled many remakes.... [/quote]
What shows has Fremantle mangled? I thought that TTTT, CS, etc. were all done by Pearson.
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Mark, Fremantle is Pearson.
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[/quote=Skynet74,Nov 11 2004, 12:34]
Well Fremantle is no better poised to get clearance than Sony would be. Fremantle is not a broadcaster. They don't own any more local TV stations than Sony does. They all have the same obstacles to deal with. I think the original poster was making the point that Sony produces a quality product. Fremantles standards typically have not been as high for their game show offerings. (Price excluded). After seeing how Fremantle mangled many remakes.... I would have much rather have seen Sony in control. If they handled things nearly as well as they have with Wheel and Jeopardy, then I think the Game Show world would of been a much happier place Today.
John
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I agree that neither company has much influence in getting shows on the air. Sony also has the rights to the Bob Stewart formats as well as Chuck Barris and selected Barry & Enright, and I'm not seeing a rush to get these formats back on the air. In the case of Merv, I would guess he's still somewhat interested in the direction of the shows and if he were to object to something, maybe Sony would take the phone call. I'm not sure I want to see all the "eggs" in Sony's basket.
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I think the original poster was making the point that Sony produces a quality product. After seeing how Fremantle mangled many remakes.... I would have much rather have seen Sony in control. If they handled things nearly as well as they have with Wheel and Jeopardy, then I think the Game Show world would of been a much happier place Today.
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Exactly! The ongoing proof is 'Wheel' and 'Jeopardy' which are now set through '10, and the well-produced, respectable 'Pyramid' remake.
Paul
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Personally, I liked TTTT2000 and even Louie Feud better than Donny Pyramid.
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 02:17 PM\']Personally, I liked TTTT2000 and even Louie Feud better than Donny Pyramid.
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TTTT 2000 wasn't bad. It was probably the best remake from Fremantle. But remember the reason for that is because it remained so true to the original. However I don't like the fact that Fremantle always feels a need to screw with certain elements that should be left alone. I also don't like how they completely change theme music and set designs. Updates would be nice, but complete overhauls result in losing way to much of the classic feel of the show. It's this classic feel that most people seem to love. Just look at The Price Is Right for a prime example of that fact.
Sony just seems to do things better.
John
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[quote name=\'PaulD\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 01:59 PM\']Exactly! The ongoing proof is 'Wheel' and 'Jeopardy' which are now set through '10, and the well-produced, respectable 'Pyramid' remake.
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Quality is in the eye of the beholder. Too bad the majority of Americans appear to like crapola.
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[quote name=\'Skynet74\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 04:03 PM\']It's this classic feel that most people seem to love. Just look at The Price Is Right for a prime example of that fact.
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I think it has to do with the host more than anything, but I digress...
Wonder if Sony did take over Price they would have changed the Eggcrate displays and One Bids?
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[quote name=\'PaulD\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 01:59 PM\']Exactly! The ongoing proof is 'Wheel' and 'Jeopardy' which are now set through '10, and the well-produced, respectable 'Pyramid' remake.
Paul
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Somewhat.......While certain enhancements to WoF are nice (such as the prize wheel), I don't like some of the additions to the show, such as the toss-up puzzles, and the "no more vowels" popup....
Jeopardy really hasn't changed much except for the dollar values and the cosmetic changes; the game has actually largely remained the same with the exception of the first syndicated Jeopardy and the 1978 edition.
Pyramid - the attempt was there, but IMHO, it fell short. It had too much of a "Millionaire"-like look to it on the set, and the "6-in-20" idea just seemed, to me, too rushed...
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Personally, I liked TTTT2000 and even Louie Feud better than Donny Pyramid.
After the new GSN ran that 1994 'feud' I am open to more unexpected things from them.
One would be if they were to run that last 'To Tell the Truth.'
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[quote name=\'Skynet74\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 02:03 PM\']However I don't like the fact that Fremantle always feels a need to screw with certain elements that should be left alone. I also don't like how they completely change theme music and set designs. Updates would be nice, but complete overhauls result in losing way to much of the classic feel of the show.
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With regard to Pyramid, Sony is guilty of every single one of these transgressions that you villify Fremantle for.
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Goodson would never have ceded creative control over his shows during his lifetime, period. Guys like Merrill Heatter and Bob Stewart are now (when they're not counting their millions) sitting back and watching others botch (Pyramid) or not botch (Squares) the formats they created. Not Goodson; his ego was too big, and I think he had ideas about Jonathan running the company after his death. Goodson and Todman sold off WML? and IGAS decades ago yet a condition of the sale was that they would continue to produce subsequent versions.
The interesting question is, would Jonathan have sold the company if there were still a vibrant market for daytime game shows, as there was until the '90s?
Merv didn't sell his shows to Sony. He sold them to Columbia which at the time IIRC was a division of Coca Cola Enterprises, an arm of Coca Cola the beverage manufacturer. Mark and Zach: correct me if my recollection is faulty.
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Sony was guilty of every one of those transgressions plus hyperactive directing. Cutting to a different camera every 3 seconds does not necessarily make a show any faster-paced. In Pyramid's case it confused the hell out of me. In the Winner's Circle I could barely tell the celeb from the contstant to begin with, and all that cutting had me totally lost on who was who. Couldn't leave perfect enough alone, could they?
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[quote name=\'chris319\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 05:22 PM\']Merv didn't sell his shows to Sony. He sold them to Columbia which at the time IIRC was a division of Coca Cola Enterprises, an arm of Coca Cola the beverage manufacturer. Mark and Zach: correct me if my recollection is faulty.
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Correct.
And Sony was never a candidate for taking over MGP after Goodson's death--the other names that *supposedly* were looking at the company were King World, then an independent firm, and Lorne Michaels' Broadway Video.
Sony's only other connection with MGP was that MGP was supposed to be a co-owner of GSN, but Jonathan Goodson bailed out after Mark's death (probably knowing that he was going to sell the company), while still collecting money from licensing their program library to GSN.
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MGP was supposed to be a co-owner of GSN, but Jonathan Goodson bailed out after Mark's death (probably knowing that he was going to sell the company)
Jonathan was smart in not taking that risk. Licensing the library was pure upside. Being a partner in GSN involved substantial risk, but it might have greased the deal to license the library. Jonathan may also have had in mind that he would sell MGP and strike out on his own as a producer, trading on his father's name, with the late Chester Feldman on his creative team and guys like Mike Brockman and Harris Katelman around.
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With regard to Pyramid, Sony is guilty of every single one of these transgressions that you villify Fremantle for.
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You are absolutely correct Chris.... and I have never personally cared for this version of Pyramid because of it. So I guess Fremantle is not solely responsible for tinkering with shows now that you mention it. However Sony's tinkering seems to have more success.
John
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[quote name=\'Skynet74\' date=\'Nov 11 2004, 05:45 PM\']With regard to Pyramid, Sony is guilty of every single one of these transgressions that you villify Fremantle for.
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You are absolutely correct Chris.... and I have never personally cared for this version of Pyramid because of it. So I guess Fremantle is not solely responsible for tinkering with shows now that you mention it. However Sony's tinkering seems to have more success.
John
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Let's do a quick analysis, shall we?
SONY
Wheel - Pretty much the same with some updates, of course the classic days are the best though.
Jeopardy! - Pretty much the same, moreso than WOF, actually
HS/H2 - Pretty much the same, jumped the shark with the 60 minute lightning round bonus (and the loss of Caroline, but that's just my opinion), but jumped back during the H2 era. The "louder" complaint given by people such as Peter Marshall himself should be considered too.
Pyramid - Same game/structure, but too many jarring changes, including the apparent hiring of simians for the judging; of the players, pushing the celebs more than the contestants (outside of gameplay, did we hear from them for more than 30 seconds?!!?); watered down game (somehow the challenge and excitement were gone); stupid subject names and subjects in themselves; and soulless set and music. John Davidson can rest easy, as his isn't the all time low point of Pyramid history. Aside from the host and cosmetic front game changes, it was still the '80s era Pyramid we all know and love.
Newlywed Game - 1996 revamp should have been called N.GINO (I take it you're familiar by now with the -INO suffix?) Better from 1997 on with Eubanks' return, until the end of series set changes, which seemed weird. Decent revival which won't have as much respect because of GSN's post-Dark Period, pre-some time before the name change NG overdosing. Even for this version, which didn't have as many eps. in the can.
Dating Game - Same thing...1996 = D.GINO, 1997 = better.
FREMANTLE (PEARSON)
Match Game - Basic game, but the rest was just done wrong. Kind of had the FF94 syndrome, as the reduction of the panel, the game (want a contained MG? Look at MGPM's glory days of 3 rounds, people!), and yes, the prizes too. (Insert Mo' Money comment here) Stars were nowhere as good, and too many questions that should have just read, "Please, please, please, use the word 'penis' to fill in this BLANK!"
Family Feud '99-'02 - A little better, but still seemed more routine and predictable than the glory days. Louie really wasn't all that great either, of course. I have also since come to realize, like many others, the evils of the 1-1-1-3 format.
Family Feud current - Look and feel is much better, they eventually fixed the round problem and added returning champions too. Richard K. isn't the best, but acceptable. Also has the "H2 Loud" syndrome, apparently, especially when they DOUBLE THE POINTS!!!!
100 Mexicanos Dijeron - I realize that Fremantle's only involvement here is giving Televisa the format. But I still must mention it as the REAL way FF should have been updated.
To Tell The Truth - Same show and format, but certain stars who put themselves over game play and purists' disdain over the challengers' topics hurt it.
CaSINO - I refuse to call it by the name of the show it was intended to be a revival of. Need I say more???????
Whammy! - A lot of what was wrong with it can probably be blamed on Mo' Money Syndrome, actually. 2nd season was better...still it didn't ever feel the same.
The Price Is Right - I admit I don't watch it regularly...most of the quibbles, though, seem to have been around changes in Beauties, the Rod not on camera issue, not hiring Randy ;-), and the "behind the scenes" stories about Bob. At least that's what I gather. Still a good taste of old school gaming.
So, as far as mostly positive shows/revivals go, Sony is at 4 (I count DG and NG to be half points), and Fremantle is at 2.5 - 3.5 (Whammy, TTTT, Karn FF get the halves here. And it's 3.5 if you count 100MD) Seems close, but consider that Fremantle/Pearson had more shows to consider, so I'd still say Sony is pretty much the winner.
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Goodson achieved his success in large part by having talented people in the company. Those talented people, and various people who learned from them, are out of the business (or are working on TPIR Live). What is left is a mere shell of the former company, run by people who mount efforts such as Card Sharks 2001 and who killed Match Game '98 through corporate micromanagement.
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In the Winner's Circle I could barely tell the celeb from the contstant to begin with, and all that cutting had me totally lost on who was who. Couldn't leave perfect enough alone, could they?
I didn't like the fast cutting between shots either, and it bugged me that the camera for the Winner's Circle was in the opposite position than it was on all the Clark versions of the show. We got so used to seeing (usually) the celebrity on the right hand side of the screen, and the contestant on the left, that I never did fullly get used to the way the Osmond version was shot.
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Jonathan was smart in not taking that risk. Licensing the library was pure upside. Being a partner in GSN involved substantial risk, but it might have greased the deal to license the library.
Good point. However, one wonders what state GSN would be in now had Goodson stayed in as a partner. Would it be on more cable systems? Would it have taken as long to build an audience? Would their schedule still be mostly "classic" game shows? Would it have gone in the direction it's now going in?
I know we can never know the actual answers, but it's interesting to speculate.
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one wonders what state GSN would be in now had Goodson stayed in as a partner. Would it be on more cable systems? Would it have taken as long to build an audience? Would their schedule still be mostly "classic" game shows? Would it have gone in the direction it's now going in?
All they could bring to the deal was the library and financial backing. They didn't know squat about running a cable network, so I doubt GSN's fate would have been much different. Yeah, maybe they could have provided some original programs (e.g. Forgive or Forget) which would have had a minor impact.