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The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Kevin Prather on July 19, 2012, 04:07:23 PM

Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Kevin Prather on July 19, 2012, 04:07:23 PM
The question on the docket today is this. In the Pyramid Winner's Circle, are you allowed to carry a tune with a clue, as long as the words you are singing are legal?

To consider:
David Garrison was buzzed on "Favorite Things" for singing "Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens". Buzzed for the singing, or for the descriptive phrasing?
Adrienne Barbeau sang the title of "O Sole Mio" on "Italian Songs" to no contest.

Discuss.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: gameshowcrazy on July 19, 2012, 04:11:01 PM
I think the problem with David Garrison's example is the word "and" in the middle.

If he sang "raindrops on roses", paused, continued singing, "whiskers on kittens" I think he would've been OK.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: BrandonFG on July 19, 2012, 04:13:35 PM
Sounds like the judges buzzed David because he didn't give a list, and instead sang the lyrics to the song. I'm guessing it would've been legit in the main game if "Favorite Things" was displayed. It's also a little misleading, considering he's describing a song by that name, not favorites like "a TV show".

Since "O Sole Mio" falls into the category of an Italian song, I could see that passing.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Kevin Prather on July 19, 2012, 04:22:17 PM
Ok. How would you rule on tacking a tune onto "A little star" for "Things that twinkle", or "A little teapot" for "Things that are stout"? Single items in each case.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: TLEberle on July 19, 2012, 04:22:35 PM
It's also a little misleading, considering he's describing a song by that name, not favorites like "a TV show".
Not really; because the context of the song is Maria describing her

(wait for it)

favorite things.

(sunglasses adjustment)

Yeah.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Kevin Prather on July 19, 2012, 04:24:23 PM
It's also a little misleading, considering he's describing a song by that name, not favorites like "a TV show".
Not really; because the context of the song is Maria describing her ... favorite things.
And indeed, she is not just describing her favorite things, she is listing them.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: wxfrcaster on July 19, 2012, 04:30:55 PM
So if you swapped the lyrics and sang "roses' raindrops" pause "kitten's whiskers" you would be ok.  But a lot to think about in a second or two.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Matt Ottinger on July 19, 2012, 04:34:41 PM
So if you swapped the lyrics and sang "roses' raindrops" pause "kitten's whiskers" you would be ok.  But a lot to think about in a second or two.
However, "bright copper kettles" and "warm woolen mittens" would be fine.

But no singing.  "Give a list.  Give only a list."
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Kevin Prather on July 19, 2012, 04:51:27 PM
But no singing.  "Give a list.  Give only a list."
So what would be the difference between singing the tune in that case, and using a high-pitched voice for "Things that squeak"? Aren't they both simply vocal inflection? (Not arguing necessarily. Just trying to understand.)
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: SRIV94 on July 19, 2012, 04:57:37 PM
But no singing.  "Give a list.  Give only a list."
So what would be the difference between singing the tune in that case, and using a high-pitched voice for "Things that squeak"? Aren't they both simply vocal inflection? (Not arguing necessarily. Just trying to understand.)
Using a high-pitched voice for "things that squeak" (at least I think) would convey the essence of the answer.

In certain situations, so would singing (especially if "Songs" is part of the subject).  But not always.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: SRIV94 on July 19, 2012, 05:02:42 PM
It's also a little misleading, considering he's describing a song by that name, not favorites like "a TV show".
Not really; because the context of the song is Maria describing her

(wait for it)

favorite things.

(sunglasses adjustment)

Yeah.
Then if you add "Maria's" to raindrops, roses, et al, you'd get away with it as far as the judge.  Although it might throw your partner off.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: WhirlieBird74 on July 19, 2012, 05:09:59 PM
You're only allowed to give a list.  Had he said "a rose's raindrops" or "Kitten's whiskers", David wouldn't have gotten zapped.  Using prepositions is a no-no.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Jay Temple on July 19, 2012, 05:17:21 PM
Regarding this very incident, my stand has always been that the clues, as given, are illegal because of the prepositional phrases. For "warm woolen mittens" and "brown copper kettles," under the rules as announced, I would say that they should be legal. A list is a list, whether it's sung or spoken.

SRIV94: "The essence" means the essence of the word itself, not the meaning. That's why people got away with saying "of" in the main game in describing "4th of July" but not "R.N." in describing a nurse.

Interesting, though, that weren't even allowed to sing in the main game on Pyramid Rocks, which was a version specifically about music!
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Steve Gavazzi on July 19, 2012, 05:17:41 PM
"Give a list.  Give only a list."
"For the next 60 seconds, this station will be giving a list of the Emergency Broadcast System.  Give only a list."

(I'm sorry.  That was the first thing that popped into my head when I saw this.)
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: TLEberle on July 19, 2012, 05:19:37 PM
Interesting, though, that weren't even allowed to sing in the main game on Pyramid Rocks, which was a version specifically about music!
There was an excellent reason for that to be disallowed.

"Normally we go to the Winner's Circle for a $5,000 try. You sang eight times during the game so we took the royalties we had to pay out of the jackpot. For $1,800, here is your first subject. Go!"
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: SRIV94 on July 19, 2012, 05:25:58 PM
"Normally we go to the Winner's Circle for a $5,000 try. You sang eight times during the game so we took the royalties we had to pay out of the jackpot. For $1,800, here is your first subject. Go!"
You win, sir.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Matt Ottinger on July 19, 2012, 06:21:06 PM
"Normally we go to the Winner's Circle for a $5,000 try. You sang eight times during the game so we took the royalties we had to pay out of the jackpot. For $1,800, here is your first subject. Go!"
I was half-watching Russell Brand's new stream-of-consciousness FX talk show when a long, steady <bleep> caught my attention.  I figured Brand had let loose with a string of profanities too tightly woven to be edited out separately, but when I looked at the screen, there was a message saying that instead, he was singing a Carpenters song, and it would have cost the show $25,000 to leave it in.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: clemon79 on July 19, 2012, 07:04:10 PM
Aren't they both simply vocal inflection? (Not arguing necessarily. Just trying to understand.)
No, one is SINGING.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: BrandonFG on July 19, 2012, 07:07:39 PM
"Normally we go to the Winner's Circle for a $5,000 try. You sang eight times during the game so we took the royalties we had to pay out of the jackpot. For $1,800, here is your first subject. Go!"
I was half-watching Russell Brand's new stream-of-consciousness FX talk show when a long, steady <bleep> caught my attention.  I figured Brand had let loose with a string of profanities too tightly woven to be edited out separately, but when I looked at the screen, there was a message saying that instead, he was singing a Carpenters song, and it would have cost the show $25,000 to leave it in.
While we're on the subject of music rights and clearances, I'm a faithful watcher of Antenna TV's Sunday night of WKRP. I find it refreshing that they've left a lot of original music in. The clearances are the main reason I never bought the first season on DVD.

Apparently I wasn't alone because it's been five years, and they still have yet to release season two.

/ObGameShow: Quite a few cast members made game show appearances in the late-70s/early-80s
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Matt Ottinger on July 19, 2012, 07:12:35 PM
While we're on the subject of music rights and clearances, I'm a faithful watcher of Antenna TV's Sunday night of WKRP. I find it refreshing that they've left a lot of original music in. The clearances are the main reason I never bought the first season on DVD.
The issues are complicated, but isn't the simple version that reruns were covered by the original licenses but home video -- which few people were even thinking about back then -- weren't?  Seems like they had to change some music for the syndicated package, which is almost certainly the version you're enjoying on your subchannel of digital goodness.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: BrandonFG on July 19, 2012, 07:18:31 PM
The issues are complicated, but isn't the simple version that reruns were covered by the original licenses but home video -- which few people were even thinking about back then -- weren't?  Seems like they had to change some music for the syndicated package, which is almost certainly the version you're enjoying on your subchannel of digital goodness.
From what I've read, it was indeed tied to a later rerun package, one that made the rounds on Nick At Nite in the late-90s.

Can't remember where I read this, but when the show premiered, the producers also wanted to shoot on film (like the other MTM sitcoms of the '70s), but the cost to do that and use original music was way too expensive at the time. And since the idea of a sitcom about a rock-and-roll station using soundalikes prolly would've killed the authenticity, they went with videotape instead.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: snowpeck on July 19, 2012, 08:11:03 PM
The issues are complicated, but isn't the simple version that reruns were covered by the original licenses but home video -- which few people were even thinking about back then -- weren't?  Seems like they had to change some music for the syndicated package, which is almost certainly the version you're enjoying on your subchannel of digital goodness.
From what I've read, it was indeed tied to a later rerun package, one that made the rounds on Nick At Nite in the late-90s.

Can't remember where I read this, but when the show premiered, the producers also wanted to shoot on film (like the other MTM sitcoms of the '70s), but the cost to do that and use original music was way too expensive at the time. And since the idea of a sitcom about a rock-and-roll station using soundalikes prolly would've killed the authenticity, they went with videotape instead.

According to a no-longer available article that's quoted here (http://"http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/WKRP-Cincinnati/7212"), MTM was able to slip WKRP in under a rule that live or videotaped shows got a huge discount on music royalties.  The rule was put in mainly for music-heavy variety shows.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: pyrfan on July 20, 2012, 01:22:48 AM
The question on the docket today is this. In the Pyramid Winner's Circle, are you allowed to carry a tune with a clue, as long as the words you are singing are legal?

To consider:
David Garrison was buzzed on "Favorite Things" for singing "Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens". Buzzed for the singing, or for the descriptive phrasing?

Discuss.
A few weeks earlier, for THINGS THAT SWING, Martha Smith sang "A chariot" to the tune of "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot," and the judges let it go.


Brendan
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: TimK2003 on July 20, 2012, 12:48:47 PM
So if you swapped the lyrics and sang "roses' raindrops" pause "kitten's whiskers" you would be ok.  But a lot to think about in a second or two.
However, "bright copper kettles" and "warm woolen mittens" would be fine.

But no singing.  "Give a list.  Give only a list."


Were there any no-nos associated with head movements or gestures in the WC?  I would think naming the items in the song while bobbing your head to & fro (ala Eddie Murphy's impression of Stevie Wonder) would be considered legal -- your not singing, but your moving your head to an unheard beat.  Then again, if the category would be "Things That Blink", and you said, "your eyes...my eyes" while batting your eyelashes, that might get the buzzer, or would it???
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: gameshowcrazy on July 20, 2012, 04:20:48 PM
Were there any no-nos associated with head movements or gestures in the WC?  I would think naming the items in the song while bobbing your head to & fro (ala Eddie Murphy's impression of Stevie Wonder) would be considered legal -- your not singing, but your moving your head to an unheard beat.  Then again, if the category would be "Things That Blink", and you said, "your eyes...my eyes" while batting your eyelashes, that might get the buzzer, or would it???
[/quote]

you can move your head, it wasn't strapped in...

there are many instances of people moving their head in a matter to indicate the other player was on the right track and should keep spitting out guesses.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Kevin Prather on July 20, 2012, 04:52:37 PM
Were there any no-nos associated with head movements or gestures in the WC?  I would think naming the items in the song while bobbing your head to & fro (ala Eddie Murphy's impression of Stevie Wonder) would be considered legal -- your not singing, but your moving your head to an unheard beat.  Then again, if the category would be "Things That Blink", and you said, "your eyes...my eyes" while batting your eyelashes, that might get the buzzer, or would it???
You could give a little head nod if they're on the right track, but anything overtly visual, like your example, would be buzzed.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: clemon79 on July 20, 2012, 04:58:57 PM
Were there any no-nos associated with head movements or gestures in the WC?
Apparently, as has been discussed in past threads.

Quote
I would think naming the items in the song while bobbing your head to & fro (ala Eddie Murphy's impression of Stevie Wonder) would be considered legal -- your not singing, but your moving your head to an unheard beat.
If Adrienne Barbeau was told she would have been popped for fluttering her eyelashes (http://"http://gameshow.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6881&view=findpost&p=73186") for THINGS THAT FLICKER, then it's reasonable to assume that this is WAY more illegal than that.

Quote
Then again, if the category would be "Things That Blink", and you said, "your eyes...my eyes" while batting your eyelashes, that might get the buzzer, or would it???
See above. "Just give a list." It's not that hard.

Quote
you can move your head, it wasn't strapped in...
The straps are nothing more than an aid if givers want to use it. They are in no way required or a direct correlation of game rules.

That said, coming out of break to see Mary Cadorette all trussed up Hannibal Lecter-style in the Winner's Restraints would have been funny as hell.

Quote
there are many instances of people moving their head in a matter to indicate the other player was on the right track and should keep spitting out guesses.
There is a massive difference between that and using a head gesture to enhance an item in the list.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: TLEberle on July 20, 2012, 05:04:13 PM
That said, coming out of break to see Mary Cadorette all trussed up Hannibal Lecter-style in the Winner's Restraints would have been funny as hell.
"If you do any of those things you not only give up your chance at the $10,000 but you'll also know why we put in the straps and leg cuffs."
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Kevin Prather on July 20, 2012, 05:04:56 PM
That said, coming out of break to see Mary Cadorette all trussed up Hannibal Lecter-style in the Winner's Restraints would have been funny as hell.
Some people might find it more than funny, IYKWIM. AIKTYD.
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: chris319 on July 20, 2012, 06:32:04 PM
You're only allowed to give a list.  Had he said "a rose's raindrops" or "Kitten's whiskers", David wouldn't have gotten zapped.  Using prepositions is a no-no.
The word and is not a preposition. It's a conjunction.

Quote
MTM was able to slip WKRP in under a rule that live or videotaped shows got a huge discount on music royalties.
Is that why WKRP was on tape while the other MTM shows were on film?
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Fedya on July 20, 2012, 07:23:11 PM
Quote
The word and is not a preposition. It's a conjunction.
Let's go to the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODGA7ssL-6g)
Title: A rousing game of Is It Legal?
Post by: Phil V on July 21, 2012, 07:46:06 PM
Sounds like the judges buzzed David because he didn't give a list, and instead sang the lyrics to the song. I'm guessing it would've been legit in the main game if "Favorite Things" was displayed. It's also a little misleading, considering he's describing a song by that name, not favorites like "a TV show".

Since "O Sole Mio" falls into the category of an Italian song, I could see that passing.

Adrienne sang "O Solo Mio" for the category "Italian Songs," and the judge didn't buzz her.


Quote
I would think naming the items in the song while bobbing your head to & fro (ala Eddie Murphy's impression of Stevie Wonder) would be considered legal -- your not singing, but your moving your head to an unheard beat.
If Adrienne Barbeau was told she would have been popped for fluttering her eyelashes (http://"http://gameshow.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6881&view=findpost&p=73186") for THINGS THAT FLICKER, then it's reasonable to assume that this is WAY more illegal than that.

I know there was an episode on Youtube where I think Henry Polic was trying to describe "Where You Find an Audience" and, in desperation, jerked his head back while saying "in this studio," and the judge didn't say anything.

EDIT: Adrienne's clip: http://www.youtube.c...uJXX4FU&t=1m40s (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-u-puJXX4FU&t=1m40s")
Henry's Clip: http://www.youtube.c...RZXUQMA&t=16m0s (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecglRZXUQMA&t=16m0s")