The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Bryce L. on March 19, 2012, 04:24:19 PM
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I know that every so often, a series with purportedly lost episodes will have some, if not all, of their missing episodes end up being recovered (with either the discovery of the first two seasons of the CBS-era Joker's Wild or the discovery of the 1968 NBC Primetime run of Hollywood Squares being the biggest finds, depending on who you ask).
Also, I know that in the two examples I just cited, both of those were found sitting in old archives (the Joker episodes being in the vaults at WCBS in New York, not sure about exactly where the Squares episodes turned up).
My question is, are there any other common sources for finds, aside from searching studio or network archives?
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Erm, such as...what? Where else would there be a broadcast-quality archive of a given series?
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My question is, are there any other common sources for finds, aside from searching studio or network archives?
In terms of large collections, probably not. Nobody's going to have the entire run of The Wizard of Odds in his garage. There are almost certainly large collections sitting in network, studio or syndicator archives just gathering dust and/or deteriorating because there's no financial incentive for them to be unearthed. By all accounts, there is a wealth of treasures buried in the Library of Congress that will probably never see the light of day either, including lots of original Concentration episodes.
Still, I think we're always going to see rare finds popping up an episode at a time from any number of sources. A lot of late-seventies, early-eighties rarities are showing up on YouTube courtesy of some contestant who recorded himself on an early VCR. There are also collectors who don't share all their treasures publicly for one reason or another. Some of us (myself included) have seen things privately that other collectors might not know exist. The Paley Centers in LA and NY, as well as the UCLA archive, have many rare videos that may someday, somehow, reach collectors' hands. And then there are folks like the YouTube user videoarchives1000 (http://"http://www.youtube.com/user/videoarchives1000/featured") who clearly has a lot of rare treasures that he's only recently begun to share with the world. Maybe other collectors like that will start uploading their rarities. I'm always hopeful for more rare delights.
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Erm, such as...what? Where else would there be a broadcast-quality archive of a given series?
Or ANYTHING to prove that the footage hasn't been wiped from all existence
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My question is, are there any other common sources for finds, aside from searching studio or network archives?
In terms of large collections, probably not. Nobody's going to have the entire run of The Wizard of Odds in his garage. There are almost certainly large collections sitting in network, studio or syndicator archives just gathering dust and/or deteriorating because there's no financial incentive for them to be unearthed. By all accounts, there is a wealth of treasures buried in the Library of Congress that will probably never see the light of day either, including lots of original Concentration episodes.
Still, I think we're always going to see rare finds popping up an episode at a time from any number of sources. A lot of late-seventies, early-eighties rarities are showing up on YouTube courtesy of some contestant who recorded himself on an early VCR. There are also collectors who don't share all their treasures publicly for one reason or another. Some of us (myself included) have seen things privately that other collectors might not know exist. The Paley Centers in LA and NY, as well as the UCLA archive, have many rare videos that may someday, somehow, reach collectors' hands. And then there are folks like the YouTube user videoarchives1000 (http://"http://www.youtube.com/user/videoarchives1000/featured") who clearly has a lot of rare treasures that he's only recently begun to share with the world. Maybe other collectors like that will start uploading their rarities. I'm always hopeful for more rare delights.
As much as you can answer without breaking anyone's confidence, is there footage you have been privy to, of series that are otherwise believed ENTIRELY wiped? As in, not even a poor off-air copy known outside of what you have seen?
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OK, perhaps I cited bad examples to start this thread. Let me rephrase that, when footage surfaces, where it was otherwise not known to exist, what usually ends up being the source of that find (and I'm not restricting it to broadcast-quality finds, or entire-series finds, either)
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There are almost certainly large collections sitting in network, studio or syndicator archives just gathering dust and/or deteriorating because there's no financial incentive for them to be unearthed.
I agree with you, because there is no money to be had, the people who own those archives don't give a hoot about searching through them.
But let me ask you this: Who says there has to be a carrot dangled in front of them? What's wrong with donating these archives to organizations that will, if necessary, do work to make the footage at least watchable again, and then put it online for all to see, free of charge?
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As much as you can answer without breaking anyone's confidence, is there footage you have been privy to, of series that are otherwise believed ENTIRELY wiped? As in, not even a poor off-air copy known outside of what you have seen?
I'm not exactly sure what specific shows you might be talking about, but in general, yes, I've probably seen some things that most people think are either destroyed or inaccessible.
OK, perhaps I cited bad examples to start this thread. Let me rephrase that, when footage surfaces, where it was otherwise not known to exist, what usually ends up being the source of that find (and I'm not restricting it to broadcast-quality finds, or entire-series finds, either)
I think my earlier answer still applies.
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But let me ask you this: Who says there has to be a carrot dangled in front of them? What's wrong with donating these archives to organizations that will, if necessary, do work to make the footage at least watchable again, and then put it online for all to see, free of charge?
Even if a commercial enterprise suddenly took leave of its senses and gave away a bunch of product that they own, there is a considerable expense to transferring older, obsolete formats to something viewable. That sort of stuff is just not done merely to satisfy the curiosity of collectors who want to see it "free of charge". There are also all sorts of legal matters to consider. Trust me, this is not a realistic option.
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Even if a commercial enterprise suddenly took leave of its senses and gave away a bunch of product that they own, there is a considerable expense to transferring older, obsolete formats to something viewable. That sort of stuff is just not done merely to satisfy the curiosity of collectors who want to see it "free of charge". There are also all sorts of legal matters to consider. Trust me, this is not a realistic option.
The quote I was given once was $800 for a standard 2" tape, and you have to pay it whether they can convert it or not. Even I don't think it's worth it.
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But let me ask you this: Who says there has to be a carrot dangled in front of them? What's wrong with donating these archives to organizations that will, if necessary, do work to make the footage at least watchable again, and then put it online for all to see, free of charge?
Even if a commercial enterprise suddenly took leave of its senses and gave away a bunch of product that they own, there is a considerable expense to transferring older, obsolete formats to something viewable. That sort of stuff is just not done merely to satisfy the curiosity of collectors who want to see it "free of charge". There are also all sorts of legal matters to consider. Trust me, this is not a realistic option.
I suppose I am thinking of something that is already in the public domain, with no legal strings attached. And I guess I didn't consider the kinds of expenses places like the Internet Archive run into.
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I suppose I am thinking of something that is already in the public domain, with no legal strings attached.
Like, such as?
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As much as you can answer without breaking anyone's confidence, is there footage you have been privy to, of series that are otherwise believed ENTIRELY wiped? As in, not even a poor off-air copy known outside of what you have seen?
I'm not exactly sure what specific shows you might be talking about, but in general, yes, I've probably seen some things that most people think are either destroyed or inaccessible.
I didn't have any specific examples in mind when I asked that, for the record.
OK, perhaps I cited bad examples to start this thread. Let me rephrase that, when footage surfaces, where it was otherwise not known to exist, what usually ends up being the source of that find (and I'm not restricting it to broadcast-quality finds, or entire-series finds, either)
I think my earlier answer still applies.
I didn't think anything was wrong with your example. Just clemon helped me to see I may have written my initial post in a bad way, and I thank him for that.
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I suppose I am thinking of something that is already in the public domain, with no legal strings attached. And I guess I didn't consider the kinds of expenses places like the Internet Archive run into.
As a result of The Mouse's ultimate control of copyright law in this country, is there ANY television that fits under this heading, almost by definition?
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I suppose I am thinking of something that is already in the public domain, with no legal strings attached. And I guess I didn't consider the kinds of expenses places like the Internet Archive run into.
As a result of The Mouse's ultimate control of copyright law in this country, is there ANY television that fits under this heading, almost by definition?
The only class of TV shows I can think of as being in the public domain are ones that registered for federal copyright prior to 1964 and then did not timely renew the registration. That's basically it.
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Any works that did not carry a copyright notice in the credits prior to 1974 were considered to be public domain. As far as I understand, some TV movies are available on the Internet Archive under that premise.
After 1974, creation of the work was enough to grant automatic copyright, no notice required.
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Any works that did not carry a copyright notice in the credits prior to 1974 were considered to be public domain. As far as I understand, some TV movies are available on the Internet Archive under that premise.
After 1974, creation of the work was enough to grant automatic copyright, no notice required.
As a preliminary matter, I have correct some of the facts you mentioned.
Copyright has always automatically existed in original creative works from the moment they are fixed in a tangible medium of expression (ink on paper, magnetism on tapes, grooves on CDs or records, etc.). Before 1978, protection was under state law. The 1976 Act, which went into effect on January 1, 1978, abolished state-law copyright (also called common-law copyright) for all works except for sound recordings fixed prior to February 15, 1972 (when federal law began protecting sound recordings).
Before March 1, 1989, there was a notice requirement to maintain copyright. Before 1978, published works were required to have a valid copyright notice on each copy. However, the definition of published under case law excludes at least network television broadcasts, as the tapes are not generally distributed to the public (The leading case involves the first season of Star Trek, which has no copyright notice). After 1978, the definition of publication changed in a way that could include distributing a copyrighted work to more than one station for broadcast. However, the notice requirement also changed. 17 USC 401 requires a copyright notice on each copy of a copyrighted work distributed to the public. Broadcasts are not copies, since they are not fixed, and the tapes used for broadcast are not distributed to the public. Hence, after 1978, the notice requirement for television shows only triggers upon distribution to the public of actual copies of the works (such as on home video).
Regardless, unpublished works never had to have notice under copyright law.
In light of this, I stand behind my opinion that the only game shows that are in the public domain are the ones that registed for federal copyright prior to 1964 and then did not timely renew the registration in the 28th year after the original registration.
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Thanks for clarifying. (And I knew it was 1978. Why it came out 1974....?) I knew that there were films classified PD because of a lack of copyright notice, but, by the rationale you laid out, the physical film prints are placed out into the public, TV shows are not. (Although it is interesting that when the "fixed form" of television shows is the public-owned broadcast spectrum, that there is this exception.)
Now, as long as no one sings "Happy Birthday," we won't all get sued.