The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: JasonA1 on February 09, 2011, 02:44:06 AM
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I think I've started more discussion on Mindreaders than any member in their right mind, but bear with me and whatever marbles are left. I finally gave an episode of this a chance (part 1 (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JX63hTuQJM\") and part 2 (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlCHA_bpwI0\")) and was surprised by what I saw. I would easily rank it above The Better Sex.
I think this is another show that gained a reputation through its lore rather than anything people actually saw for themselves. At the time, Feud was going strong (day and night), Match Game was in syndication, Password was back, Card Sharks chugging along...compared to those titans, this probably looked worse. For one, I really enjoyed the bonus game. Judging 10 people on sight has the potential to be boring, but the material in the episode screened was interesting enough (moreso in bonus game two). Dick Martin did fine in his role, handling the game well, and keeping things as fun as they could be.
The main game questions could have been a bit better, but still had to rely on bigger/more defined personalities to mindread. In this episode's case, the men's team barely qualified. Which brings to mind my key suggestion: flipping it around so one contestant is mindreading a team of celebrities. With that, the contestant and viewers alike are judging people they "know," and we get that Tattle Tales-esque peek into the lives of the stars.
I find it a little funny that getting celebrities for this show today would be easier from the stance that anyone can be a "celebrity" in this pop culture - but it's harder because no one wants to spend that much on appearance fees it seems. I'll certainly try this out next time my family puts me in charge of a big game night. It works better when there's more known entities than not, so it will be fun for the in-laws to second guess one another's scruples.
-Jason
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[quote name=\'JasonA1\' post=\'256715\' date=\'Feb 8 2011, 11:44 PM\']so it will be fun for the in-laws to second guess one another's scruples.[/quote]
Aaaaand if you can latch onto a copy, you appear to have found a good source for game material (http://\"http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1748/a-question-of-scruples\"), too. :)
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I don't know if this sparked Mindreaders, but Tattletales tried a new twist in their format for a week where a representative from each section tried to guess whether their celeb would reply yes or no to a question. It didn't really work for Tattletales because playing out one question took a fair amount of time.
Someone on here said that the pilot for Mindreaders was VERY well recieved because it was hilarious. However, I had some problems with the game's format.
First, the contestants really had very little to do. All they had to do was answer yes or no. Their fate in the game relies on a celeb being able to "read" you.
Second, the celebs were hit and miss in trying to act like they "know" these people, and make it sound interesting. It just didn't work for me, it was boring after a while.
Dick Martin seems to be having some fun with the game, and IMO he did well considering he had little to work with. Easily this game was better suited for his talent, and his dignity than The Cheap Show. The Cheap Show was pretty funny, and lampooned the game show very well, but it was a one joke show. I can't imagine that Oscar the Wonder Rodent, the ditzy assistant, and contestants getting slimed or pied would be much fun after a while.
I personally liked The Better Sex. The format did have some obvious derivatives (bluffing answers a la HS and two teams a la Family Feud) but the two host format worked very well, with Bill and Sarah working together, neither trying to top the other. Apparently Family Feud was originally conceived in a format similar to Better Sex. You can also tell, if you've ever watched the finale, that the crew obviously loved the show. You can see several teary eyed backstage people onstage during the credits.
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There wasn't a pilot for Mindreaders in the conventional sense. There were office run-throughs, then it went to series. The office run-throughs weren't hilarious but they were fun and went adequately well (Phillip W. Rossi was one of the surrogate celebrities). The G-T staffers used in office run-throughs "bought" the premise more readily and concealed some of the problems that surfaced when real celebrities were used. Specifically, many of the real celebrities had to conceal their bewilderment at the prospect of predicting the responses of a total stranger, and some didn't do a very good job of it. You could play Mindreaders with two civilian conestants and a panel of celebs, but now you're getting into Celebrity Sweepstakes territory.
I have made Mindreaders the butt of jokes on many occasions. That it was cancelled four weeks shy of its original 26-week commitment further tarnishes its reputation. Today there have been far, far worse game shows than Mindreaders on the air. As an emcee, Dick Martin was clearly superior to another highly-paid emcee on a long-running show that I'm thinking of.
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[quote name=\'whewfan\' post=\'256721\' date=\'Feb 9 2011, 03:15 AM\']Easily this game was better suited for his talent, and his dignity than The Cheap Show.[/quote]
Dignity? Have you SEEN Laugh-In?
You can also tell, if you've ever watched the finale, that the crew obviously loved the show. You can see several teary eyed backstage people onstage during the credits.
When you're out of a job, you sure as hell don't feel like dancing.
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256722\' date=\'Feb 9 2011, 04:24 AM\']Specifically, many of the real celebrities had to conceal their bewilderment at the prospect of predicting the responses of a total stranger, and some didn't do a very good job of it.[/quote]
Rightfully so.
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[quote name=\'whewfan\' post=\'256721\' date=\'Feb 9 2011, 06:15 AM\']Dick Martin seems to be having some fun with the game, and IMO he did well considering he had little to work with. Easily this game was better suited for his talent, and his dignity than The Cheap Show. The Cheap Show was pretty funny, and lampooned the game show very well, but it was a one joke show. I can't imagine that Oscar the Wonder Rodent, the ditzy assistant, and contestants getting slimed or pied would be much fun after a while.[/quote]
When Martin was on MG not long after that show had ended its run, "Cheap BLANK" came up in the audience match, and when "Cheap Show" came up as an alternate answer after the first three had been chosen, Gene turned to Dick and asked, "Is that still on?" and Dick let out this almost panicked laugh, "I hope not!"
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Dignity? Have you SEEN Laugh-In?
Laugh-In may not exactly have been high class entertainment, but Dick Martin and Dan Rowan were more or less separated from the zany hijinks created by the rest of the cast. If you've ever seen any of the outtakes from Laugh-In, there's not one where Dick went out of line or attempted anything that would never make it on the air. (Dan Rowan, on the other hand, certainly let out some expletives when he had the opportunity) When I went to NBC in Burbank a while ago, someone there mentioned Dick Martin was always very professional.
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Dick Martin was always very professional.
He was. I saw one of the few extant clips not long ago and Dick had some byplay with an off-camera Johnny Olson, FWIW.
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I thought The Better Sex was better than Mindreaders, Dick Martin did the best he could with what he was given. He wasn't the smoothest emcee but you could tell he was having fun. It was fun watching hosts like Rayburn and Cullen trying to "read" the civilians. The "jury" segment would be used later on Eubanks' Card Sharks.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256722\' date=\'Feb 9 2011, 07:24 AM\']There wasn't a pilot for Mindreaders in the conventional sense.[/quote]
Really? I thought the pic in TEOTVGS, Vol. 1, featuring Sarah Purcell and Charles Nelson Reilly as celebs, was from a pilot.
Brendan
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There wasn't a pilot for Mindreaders in the conventional sense.
Really? I thought the pic in TEOTVGS, Vol. 1, featuring Sarah Purcell and Charles Nelson Reilly as celebs, was from a pilot.
It was a test episode taped ten days before the show's debut. (http://www.usgameshows.net/x.php?show=Mindreaders)
As an emcee, Dick Martin was clearly superior to another highly-paid emcee on a long-running show that I'm thinking of.
As an emcee, Dick Martin was clearly superior to another highly-paid emcee on a long-running show that I'm thinking of.[/quote]
Two people came to my mind -- Rolf Benirschke (daytime Wheel of Fortune) and Drew Carey (The Price Is Right). If this was a question on Million-Dollar Money Drop, I'd split the million evenly.
(EDIT: Post immediately below thinks it's some guy named Bob. I really don't think that's Goen {daytime Wheel}, so keeping with my little fun thing I'll move $200,000 to Hilton {Truth or Consequences '77/Let's Make A Deal '90, somewhat more likely} and $400,000 to Barker {because he's an idiot when not around the cameras/fans and went on autopilot for the last few years}.)
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[quote name=\'Dan88\' post=\'256821\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 03:21 AM\'][quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256722\' date=\'Feb 9 2011, 07:24 AM\']As an emcee, Dick Martin was clearly superior to another highly-paid emcee on a long-running show that I'm thinking of.[/quote]
Two people came to my mind -- Rolf Benirschke (daytime Wheel Of Fortune) and Drew Carey (Price is Right). Personally, I'd put my money on Drew.
[/quote]
*cough* Bob *cough*
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[quote name=\'Dan88\' post=\'256821\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 03:21 AM\']Rolf Benirschke (daytime Wheel Of Fortune)[/quote]
Really? I mean... REALLY???
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Assuming you're referring to Barker, are you saying that Dick Martin could've hosted TPIR?
Considering The New Price is Right debuted in 1972, Laugh-In was still on the air on NBC. I don't think Dick Martin would've ever crossed ANYONE'S mind at the time as someone that could do an audience participation show. Yet, I can almost see him doing Price... he might've done well. Dick Martin was a funny guy, but I don't think he "tried" to be funny. In theory, he could've taken over for Dennis James because Laugh-In was over by 1977.
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I was referring to Drew Carey. Dick was a little rough in dealing with a structured format, but he was a lot smoother than Drew. Having said that, it's an apples-to-oranges comparison with the many pricing games Drew has to deal with. Still, he's been doing the show for over three years now ...
Dick Martin could never have done TPIR adequately well.
Mindreaders never had a conventional pilot, where a sample episode is made and the decision to air the show is made on the basis of the pilot. Mindreaders, like P+ and Blockbusters, was already a "go" when the so-called pilot was shot, probably for accounting reasons. It was really more of a dress rehearsal. There were traditional pilots for Spellbinders and Puzzlers which didn't sell.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256883\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 08:49 PM\']Mindreaders never had a conventional pilot, where a sample episode is made and the decision to air the show is made on the basis of the pilot. Mindreaders, like P+ and Blockbusters, was already a "go" when the so-called pilot was shot, probably for accounting reasons. It was really more of a dress rehearsal. There were traditional pilots for Spellbinders and Puzzlers which didn't sell.[/quote]
Mike Berger's site said the test show was made August 3, and the debut was August 13. By that time, if nothing else, TV Guide with Mindreaders ads concealed within would have already been on press. If you're making a pilot at that point, something is very, very wrong.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256883\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 05:49 PM\']I was referring to Drew Carey.[/quote]
Really? I, for one, had no clue.
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If you're making a pilot at that point, something is very, very wrong.
I beg your pardon? We were required by NBC to make a pilot. I suspect that the costs associated with the pilot (including the set) came out of NBC's budget for three pilots per quarter. NBC then got to deduct the costs associated with those pilots as R&D expenses. So they had real tax consequences for the network.
Mike Berger's site said the test show was made August 3, and the debut was August 13.
We rehearsed in the studio from Monday, July 30 until Friday, August 3 when the pilot episode was shot. Bill Todman passed away on Sunday, July 29 so Goodson was in New York through Tuesday the 31st. He came to the Mindreaders set with Marc Breslow in tow on Wednesday the 1st. Paul Alter had pissed away the first two days of rehearsal unable to come up with a workable opening. When Breslow got there, he and Goodson came up with the opening that had the celebrity team captains in a box wipe against the multi-colored set wall and the opening copy used on the air was written.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256900\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 07:31 PM\']When Breslow got there, he and Goodson came up with the opening that had the celebrity team captains in a box wipe against the multi-colored set wall and the opening copy used on the air was written.[/quote]
I don't think Marc Breslow ever had an original thought in his head, Goodson came up with the opening, or was able to over-rule Paul and pick the best ideas from others on staff to come up with the opening. Of course I was not there, so pardon my prejudice against Breslow, I just never saw any reason to think he could direct anything that didn't already have a pattern setup for him, or didn't fit in one of the two patterns he knew already.
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[quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'256796\' date=\'Feb 9 2011, 08:01 PM\']I thought The Better Sex was better than Mindreaders[/quote]
In the bonus games I sampled on The Better Sex, they used a lot of straight-forward general knowledge. It turned an already shaky premise into a pure game of "you better hope this audience doesn't know these facts!" What skill were the contestants using to win the $5,000?
-Jason
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[quote name=\'CoreyCoop\' post=\'256918\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 10:42 PM\'][quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256900\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 07:31 PM\']When Breslow got there, he and Goodson came up with the opening that had the celebrity team captains in a box wipe against the multi-colored set wall and the opening copy used on the air was written.[/quote]
I don't think Marc Breslow ever had an original thought in his head, Goodson came up with the opening, or was able to over-rule Paul and pick the best ideas from others on staff to come up with the opening. Of course I was not there, so pardon my prejudice against Breslow, I just never saw any reason to think he could direct anything that didn't already have a pattern setup for him, or didn't fit in one of the two patterns he knew already.
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Hi Corey, welcome to the board.
Something changed between Tuesday and Wednesday of that week when Goodson returned from Todman's services and brought Breslow with him. Putting a celebrity's face inside a box wipe against a background was hardly a stroke of genius because it's so much like the Match Game opening, directed by guess who. It's plausible that Breslow suggested it, but anyone else on the staff could have as well. All you need to do then is write some opening lines to go with it and presto! A show opening! Paul fumbled around for a couple of days, having contestants on each team glaring at their opponents while the camera panned their faces. They even rented a Quantel DVE for the week but came up with nothing.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256900\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 11:31 PM\']We rehearsed in the studio from Monday, July 30 until Friday, August 3 when the pilot episode was shot.[/quote]
Chris, I wonder what you did all that week. Knowing how fast a shooting day with five or more episodes would go, that seems like a ton of time in the studio. Was that little of the game figured out? Were there celebrities around to do run-throughs? Was it training Dick Martin?
Thanks. I love hearing how you solve problems and develop shows. I write commercials, so I've had a taste of how exhilarating and dreadful it can be when an expensive crew is standing around an expensive studio and something, anything, has to appear on television soon.
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That week I spent most of the day working on P+ material in the office, then went to Mindreaders in the late afternoon. Some time was spent getting Dick up to speed and a lot of time was spent working on the opening. Stand-ins were filling the roles of celebrities and contestants. The game was in OK shape but the presentation was still being worked out. Some things can only be worked out once you're actually in the studio.
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Has there ever been an answer to the question of why this never aired on GSN?
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[quote name=\'PaulD\' post=\'257047\' date=\'Feb 12 2011, 01:10 PM\']Has there ever been an answer to the question of why this never aired on GSN?[/quote]
I'm not sure all the tapes still exist.
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If the show fell victim to erasure, then I guess it had to be total since in the old days of GSN they might have at least aired a random episode like they did with the two "Better Sex" episodes in those old "Wide World Of Games" specials.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'256900\' date=\'Feb 10 2011, 10:31 PM\']
If you're making a pilot at that point, something is very, very wrong.
I beg your pardon? We were required by NBC to make a pilot. I suspect that the costs associated with the pilot (including the set) came out of NBC's budget for three pilots per quarter. NBC then got to deduct the costs associated with those pilots as R&D expenses. So they had real tax consequences for the network.
[/quote]
What I meant (and didn't say very well) was this was more of a test program, as you said earlier in the thread, rather than a pilot for which a decision had to be made as to whether to put the series on the air or not. That decision had obviously already been made. I'm pretty sure Bob Eubanks had already been told All-Star Secrets was through at that point, right?
NBC seemed very limited in its daytime programming options in 1979 -- they had just expanded Another World to an hour and a half to replace the flop Jeopardy! revival, and had no options to rerun any of their hit sitcoms in the daytime because -- well, they had no hit sitcoms. (Diff'rent Strokes was pretty much it, and that had only debuted nine months before.) Was there any sense of urgency due to this?
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If the show fell victim to erasure, then I guess it had to be total since in the old days of GSN they might have at least aired a random episode like they did with the two "Better Sex" episodes in those old "Wide World Of Games" specials.
I'd agree to that. As far as we know, pretty well every GT show they had even just one or two episodes of, they did find a way to air at some point - shows like What's Going On, Better Sex, Number Please, the '71 ABC Password, etc. You'd really have to think if GSN had any Mindreaders tapes at all it would have popped up somewhere at least once.
The only ones we know exist but never popped up were Classic Concentration (NBC ownership issues) and Match Game/Hollywood Squares Hour (Squares ownership issues).
Oh...and for the record, I kind of liked The Better Sex.
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Also Narz Concentration (same reason as Classic Concentration) and Henry NYSI (host nixing them). And there's also the syndicated Tattletales that's never shown up at all but which we have to assume should exist given that syndicated G-T shows by then were almost always saved.
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this was more of a test program, as you said earlier in the thread, rather than a pilot for which a decision had to be made as to whether to put the series on the air or not.
Sorry to pick on your semantics again, but there was nothing to test. When the pilot was shot it was already committed to series. "Dress rehearsal" is the phrase to use.
I remember seeing a couple of pilots taped around that time; one was from Hatos-Hall and the other involved Larry Hovis IIRC. They could have picked either of those up if they needed a game show in a hurry, and there were rumors about NBC being interested in Tattletales. Barry & Enright must have been developing Bullseye around that time.