The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: MrBuddwing on October 21, 2009, 12:51:43 AM
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How much in the way of ill-gotten goods did Charles Van Doren get on "Twenty-One"?
Look it up on Wikipedia, and you'll see a production still of Van Doren with host Jack Barry and the woman who "dethroned" him, Vivienne Nearing, and the figure "$129,000" on a light board.
Surf the Web, and you'll see the figure $138,000 bandied about in a few places, including PBS.org and the Internet Movie Database.
Read the article Van Doren wrote last year for The New Yorker, and you'll see $128,000 - a figure cited by Van Doren himself.
They can't all be right (or can they?).
Any thoughts?
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$139,000 would be the winnings of Charles before being "defeated", which would explain that disparity.
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[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'228923\' date=\'Oct 20 2009, 10:18 PM\']$139,000 would be the winnings of Charles before being "defeated", which would explain that disparity.[/quote]
Please explain your arithmetic. We now have four figures being thrown about. The question addresses his net winnings without qualification such as "before being 'defeated'".
$128,000
$129,000
$138,000
$139,000
It can't be all of them.
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Van Doren would have lost $1000 for each point by which he lost his last game. Whether he went into that with $138,000 or $139,000, you got me.
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According to Charles Van Doren's testimony:
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6566/ (http://\"http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6566/\") Source: Congress, House, Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, Investigation of Television Quiz Shows, 86th Cong., 1st Sess., November 2–6, 1959 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1960).
his final total was $129,000.
He also says he played three tie games against his conqueror, so the final game in the set would have been at $2000 per point.
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[quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'228958\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 12:42 PM\']According to Charles Van Doren's testimony:
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6566/ (http://\"http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6566/\") Source: Congress, House, Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, Investigation of Television Quiz Shows, 86th Cong., 1st Sess., November 2–6, 1959 (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1960).
his final total was $129,000.
He also says he played three tie games against his conqueror, so the final game in the set would have been at $2000 per point.[/quote]
So of the above figures, he most likely went in with $139,000, and lost by 5, correct?
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Surf the Web, and you'll see the figure $138,000 bandied about in a few places
Well if it's on the web it MUST be true -- and accurate.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'228953\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 11:58 AM\']Please explain your arithmetic. We now have four figures being thrown about. The question addresses his net winnings without qualification such as "before being 'defeated'".[/quote] I'm going by what I read in Quiz Craze. He left the show with $129,000, and $10,000 was given to Ms. Nearing after the victory.
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Having written a term paper in high school on the quiz scandals, plus a little help from the book "Prime Time and Misdemeanors" let me try to help.
Van Doren went into the match with Nearing with $143,000 in winnings. The two tied in three straight games then in the fourth game at $2,000 a point, Nearing had 17 points at the end of the second round. Van Doren famously missed the question on King Beaudoin but earned 10 points on the second question. Nearing elected to stop the game and won 17-10 and $14,000 from Van Doren's total. This left Van Doren with $129,000.
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[quote name=\'joker316\' post=\'228982\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 06:03 PM\']Having written a term paper in high school on the quiz scandals, plus a little help from the book "Prime Time and Misdemeanors" let me try to help.
Van Doren went into the match with Nearing with $143,000 in winnings. The two tied in three straight games then in the fourth game at $2,000 a point, Nearing had 17 points at the end of the second round. Van Doren famously missed the question on King Beaudoin but earned 10 points on the second question. Nearing elected to stop the game and won 17-10 and $14,000 from Van Doren's total. This left Van Doren with $129,000.[/quote]
I hope you got an A on the term paper!
Confirmed with the following excerpt (page 216) from "Johnny Olson: A Voice in Time" used with the permission of the copyright holder... me!
... By contrast, big money quiz shows were awarding life-altering sums of money
to average Americans — the more average and in possession of vast knowledge, the
better. A dock worker earned $10,500 for his scholarly prowess, and a police officer
who knew Shakespeare captured $16,000. A grandmother who worked as a typist
tapped $32,000 answering questions on the Bible. A shoemaker who knew opera
sewed-up $64,000, as did Billy Pearson, a jockey who rode to riches as an expert
on art.
Charles Van Doren, who earned $4,400 a year as a Columbia University instructor,
climbed to $129,000. Elfrida Von Nardoff, a student at that respected university,
amassed $220,500, while Teddy Nadler, a minimum-wage warehouse clerk and
occasional cab driver, pocketed $252,000. As Steve Carlin, executive producer of
The $64,000 Question, described the casting dichotomy, “Good honest three-
dimensional people [with] a depth you wouldn’t suspect.”
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'228985\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 09:20 PM\']I hope you got an A on the term paper!
Randy
tvrandywest.com[/quote]
I sure did!!!
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'228967\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 05:18 PM\']
Surf the Web, and you'll see the figure $138,000 bandied about in a few places
Well if it's on the web it MUST be true -- and accurate.
[/quote]
Right. Which is why I turn to forums like this one where people know their stuff and can give me a more authoritative answer.
Appreciate being quoted out of context, though.
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'228985\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 08:20 PM\']As Steve Carlin, executive producer of
The $64,000 Question, described the casting dichotomy, “Good honest three-
dimensional people [with] a depth you wouldn’t suspect.”
Randy
tvrandywest.com[/quote]
(emphasis mine) He only got one wrong.
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'228985\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 08:20 PM\']As Steve Carlin, executive producer of
The $64,000 Question, described the casting dichotomy, “Good honest three-
dimensional people [with] a depth you wouldn’t suspect.”[/quote]
My, how far we've fallen.
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Refresh my memory, was Vivienne Nearing given help which Van Doren didn't receive, as opposed to Van Doren being ordered to take a dive as Herb Stempel was? And who was the announcer on Twenty One?
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'229016\' date=\'Oct 22 2009, 07:51 AM\']Refresh my memory, was Vivienne Nearing given help which Van Doren didn't receive, as opposed to Van Doren being ordered to take a dive as Herb Stempel was? And who was the announcer on Twenty One?[/quote]
It was fully orchestrated that Nearing would answer correctly and VanDoren would struggle with a level of drama appropriate to his unseating after a long reign as champion.
"Johnny Olson: A Voice in Time" page 223:
Van Doren’s four-month, on-air sham culminated with his stunning defeat by
attorney Vivienne Nearing. Games between the two intellectual titans ended in ties
for several weeks. Then, when it appeared that Van Doreen could have won more
than $150,000, the contestant said, “I couldn’t, because Al had informed me that I
would lose to her.”
On the evening of March 11, Jack Barry asked both Nearing and Van Doren
to name the kings of Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Jordan, Iraq, and Belgium. Both
were isolated in their sound-proofed booths, and both contenders performed their
scripted parts flawlessly. In the orchestrated intellectual Olympics, Nearing won the
gold; Van Doren finally stumbled after he seemed to prod and probe every fiber of
his grey matter for the name of the king of Belgium.
VanDoren quote attributed in the book.
The game played out in studio 6B at NBC, and Johnny had visited the set. The announcer was Bill McCord.
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'229026\' date=\'Oct 22 2009, 03:52 PM\']The game played out in studio 6B at NBC, and Johnny had visited the set. The announcer was Bill McCord.[/quote]
The show where James Snodgrass takes a dive is on YouTube and it sounds like Wayne Howell is the program announcer, and Bob Shepard (the other one, not the Yankee guy) is the commercial announcer.
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[quote name=\'davemackey\' post=\'229392\' date=\'Oct 28 2009, 07:57 PM\'][quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'229026\' date=\'Oct 22 2009, 03:52 PM\']The game played out in studio 6B at NBC, and Johnny had visited the set. The announcer was Bill McCord.[/quote]
The show where James Snodgrass takes a dive is on YouTube and it sounds like Wayne Howell is the program announcer, and Bob Shepard (the other one, not the Yankee guy) is the commercial announcer.
[/quote]
The EOTVGS confirms Bill McCord as the announcer.
I couldn't find the clip. Got a link? Although I'd be hardpressed to make a positive ID between McCord and Howell with just a quick listen.
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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[quote name=\'Mr. Armadillo\' post=\'229012\' date=\'Oct 22 2009, 09:13 AM\'][quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'228985\' date=\'Oct 21 2009, 08:20 PM\']As Steve Carlin, executive producer of
The $64,000 Question, described the casting dichotomy, “Good honest three-
dimensional people [with] a depth you wouldn’t suspect.”[/quote]
My, how far we've fallen.
[/quote]
Fallen flat? LOL
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'229395\' date=\'Oct 28 2009, 11:55 PM\']I couldn't find the clip. Got a link? Although I'd be hardpressed to make a positive ID between McCord and Howell with just a quick listen.[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csrGDgFH3Mo (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csrGDgFH3Mo\")