The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: CarShark on July 30, 2009, 06:27:05 PM
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I host Pyramid from time to time in The Palace chat room PYLP. The last time I did, a couple of tough calls came about, and I'm wondering what you all think about them.
$250: Things That Are ARRANGED
When I looked it up for definitions, the word "set" came up as a synonym. During the game, the celebrity gave the clue "a table setting", which I immediately buzzed as synonymous as the contestant said "arranged". The celebrity said that he meant the noun, not the verb, but I don't think that makes a difference in the call. After the buzz, they were unable to get the last subject.
Next, a call about how much of the word you can say in the clue.
Word: A Fraternity
Clue: Not a sorority, but a...
This one I let go.
Word: An Offense
Clue: Not defense, but...
This one I cuckoo'd. My thinking of course being that too much of the word was said in the clue.
So, what do you think? Did I make the right calls? If I was wrong with the first call, what should I have done for the contestant?
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I find this to be a good rule of thumb on the sorority/fraternity front: if the root they're copying is an actual word, it's buzzable. For example, saying "you pack this for school" as a clue for backpack would be illegal. In the case of offense/defense, "fense" is not a word. Just as "ity" on its own isn't a word in the case of fraternity. If you don't like the fact those type of clues make getting a word like "offense" easier, perhaps excise these easy words from your category, or write harder ones to complement them within the same round.
-Jason
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'221507\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 05:27 PM\']Word: A Fraternity
Clue: Not a sorority, but a...
This one I let go.
Word: An Offense
Clue: Not defense, but...
This one I cuckoo'd. My thinking of course being that too much of the word was said in the clue.[/quote]
I can't speak to the first question -- I know if I were giving clues and got buzzed for "a table setting" I'd be wondering what I did wrong. On the other hand, the clue I would have given would have been "professional flower bouquets".
For the last two, though, both were acceptable in my opinion -- defense should not have been cuckoo'd.
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This one has been bugging me for a while:
In the W/C, when a category like "Saints" comes up, would "Francis of Assisi" be acceptable even though it's prepositional phase? I was thinking it might get by since it's a title, not a modifying description.
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'221507\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 06:27 PM\']Word: A Fraternity
Clue: Not a sorority, but a...
Word: An Offense
Clue: Not defense, but...[/quote]
On an episode of The New $25,000 Pyramid from the week before they instituted the 7-11 card, a very similar situation came up...Patty Duke gave the clue "simplex" for "duplex". Initally ruled correct, but buzzed after the fact for being "too much of the essence of the word". I personally would buzz them both, as each set is too close to each word.
Mr. Matte: Yes, since "Francis of Assisi" is the proper name for that saint.
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An Assissian Francis? :)
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I love "Pyramid" clue legality threads. :P
"Not a sorority" for "fraternity": I wouldn't cuckoo it. They are opposites in ways, but not "offense/defense" type opposites. Which brings me to "Not defense, but.."---yes, good thing you cuckooed it.
knagl: I don't know, but "professional flower bouquets" strikes me as being a little descriptive.
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[quote name=\'Mr. Matté\' post=\'221512\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 07:13 PM\']In the W/C, when a category like "Saints" comes up, would "Francis of Assisi" be acceptable even though it's prepositional phase? I was thinking it might get by since it's a title, not a modifying description.[/quote]Right. I think proper nouns are alright. You could say "Wheel of Fortune" or "Two for the Money" in the category Game Shows.
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'221507\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 03:27 PM\']When I looked it up for definitions, the word "set" came up as a synonym. During the game, the celebrity gave the clue "a table setting", which I immediately buzzed as synonymous as the contestant said "arranged". The celebrity said that he meant the noun, not the verb, but I don't think that makes a difference in the call. After the buzz, they were unable to get the last subject.[/quote] The problem is not that the guy says "I meant it in a different way." The problem is that you're using a different form of the word "set". The Apple dictionary that I was looking at while shirking at work said that "set out" is a synonym, but not "set." There's a big difference.
Next, a call about how much of the word you can say in the clue.
Word: A Fraternity
Clue: Not a sorority, but a...
This one I let go.
And you were right to. The roots are completely different.
Word: An Offense
Clue: Not defense, but...
This one I cuckoo'd. My thinking of course being that too much of the word was said in the clue.
The essence of the clue wasn't there. You owe this guy a point.
So, what do you think? Did I make the right calls? If I was wrong with the first call, what should I have done for the contestant?
I don't know what you can do, but that seems to be much harsher judging than I remember. It's good that you were looking up potential illegals beforehand, but I think you were overeager to zap in some of the cases.
[quote name=\'Chief-O\' post=\'221516\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 04:31 PM\']Which brings me to "Not defense, but.."---yes, good thing you cuckooed it.[/quote] On what grounds?
knagl: I don't know, but "professional flower bouquets" strikes me as being a little descriptive.
"(Casino) Indian marriages".
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Offense/Defense is perfectly acceptable. The point is not to "convey the essence" of the answer. Just because the word shares a syllable with the answer doesn't make it illegal. That would be tantamount to cuckooing someone for saying "you call 911 when there's AN..." just because you're implying that the word starts with a vowel sound.
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fraternity/sorority: acceptable. The "-ity" suffix is no more a part of the essence than the "-ance" in "fragrance" and "elegance".
offense/defense: not acceptable. Point of comparison: Recently, in describing "dinosaur," someone was cuckoo'd for saying "brontosaurus", or some other breed that ended in "-saurus." The essence is there.
arranged/setting: I'm on the fence, leaning toward acceptance. I would say that arranging things implies a conscious effort to create a particular look. Thus, if you just lay the silverware down haphazardly, you've set it, but you haven't arranged it.
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I guess what's central to my misunderstanding is that I'm not as clear on the "essence of the word" rule as I thought.
[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'221523\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 09:49 PM\']The problem is not that the guy says "I meant it in a different way." The problem is that you're using a different form of the word "set". The Apple dictionary that I was looking at while shirking at work said that "set out" is a synonym, but not "set." There's a big difference.[/quote]I was using the Merriam-Webster.com dictionary and thesaurus features, and the thesaurus said that "arrange" and "set" were synonyms.
[quote name=\'Loogaroo\' post=\'221524\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 09:53 PM\']Offense/Defense is perfectly acceptable. The point is not to "convey the essence" of the answer. Just because the word shares a syllable with the answer doesn't make it illegal. That would be tantamount to cuckooing someone for saying "you call 911 when there's AN..." just because you're implying that the word starts with a vowel sound.[/quote]But half the sound was given. How is that not giving the essence of it?
[quote name=\'tpirfan28\' post=\'221513\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 07:19 PM\']On an episode of The New $25,000 Pyramid from the week before they instituted the 7-11 card, a very similar situation came up...Patty Duke gave the clue "simplex" for "duplex". Initally ruled correct, but buzzed after the fact for being "too much of the essence of the word". I personally would buzz them both, as each set is too close to each word.[/quote]For those saying I was mistaken, what do you think happened here?
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'221546\' date=\'Jul 31 2009, 12:49 AM\']I guess what's central to my misunderstanding is that I'm not as clear on the "essence of the word" rule as I thought.[/quote]
That's because "essence" is such an abstract term that it will never be judged 100% correctly 100% of the time. It's just a very clever way for the powers that be to say, "We think you made a mistake, and it's a mistake because we say so". I'm not saying that it leads to rigging. But much like with professional sports, officials have to make judgment calls. And "essence" is the wiggle room. In professional sports, referees can be consistent throughout a game and be judged not on an individual call, but consistency. If I pitch my fastball into the corner of the box, do I get the same call as the pitcher for the other team? If I'm driving for the hoop, how will blocking vs. charging be called? In a game show, a contestant's "career" can be ended by one bad call. So consistency has to be based not over a given game, but over the life of the show. Thus we all don't care "What Tom Cruise's Dentist Would Say".
Actually, I like another analogy even more -- the law. Decisions in cases are supposed to be made on precedent. Decisions on judging the "essence" is also sometimes made on precedent. "If it was illegal before, then it's just as illegal now." Evidence of the importance of this to our little community can be seen by the clue "A Long Rose".
[quote name=\'tpirfan28\' post=\'221513\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 07:19 PM\']On an episode of The New $25,000 Pyramid from the week before they instituted the 7-11 card, a very similar situation came up...Patty Duke gave the clue "simplex" for "duplex". Initally ruled correct, but buzzed after the fact for being "too much of the essence of the word". I personally would buzz them both, as each set is too close to each word.[/quote][quote name=\'CarShark\']For those saying I was mistaken, what do you think happened here?[/quote]
If I had to guess... in a game that deals so much with sounds, it's easier to catch things like this live when it happens at the beginning of the word, rather than the end. This means you can sometimes get away with more. But when you play in a text medium, it doesn't matter quite as much where in the word the offense (defense?) happens. So you're less likely to have those situations where one temporarily slips by you.
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[quote name=\'Jay Temple\' post=\'221542\' date=\'Jul 31 2009, 12:23 AM\']offense/defense: not acceptable. Point of comparison: Recently, in describing "dinosaur," someone was cuckoo'd for saying "brontosaurus", or some other breed that ended in "-saurus." The essence is there.[/quote]
That's because "-saur" is a root word, meaning "lizard". Dinosaur means "giant lizard." Brontosaurus means "thunder lizard." They don't just share a phonetic sound; they share a meaning. Thus, it's conveying the essence.
[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'221546\' date=\'Jul 31 2009, 12:49 AM\']But half the sound was given. How is that not giving the essence of it?[/quote]
Because it's not a form of the word, and they don't share a root meaning. There is no root for "-fense", so there's no meaning behind it. That's why it's not considered "conveying the essence", because there's no essence to it.
[quote name=\'tpirfan28\' post=\'221513\' date=\'Jul 30 2009, 07:19 PM\']On an episode of The New $25,000 Pyramid from the week before they instituted the 7-11 card, a very similar situation came up...Patty Duke gave the clue "simplex" for "duplex". Initally ruled correct, but buzzed after the fact for being "too much of the essence of the word". I personally would buzz them both, as each set is too close to each word.
For those saying I was mistaken, what do you think happened here?
[/quote]
Again, "-plex" is a root word meaning "having parts or units".
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But Pyramid isn't just about "essence", it's a game of sounds, too. How much of the sound of the word can you give away without giving its "essence"?
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'221553\' date=\'Jul 31 2009, 01:14 AM\']But Pyramid isn't just about "essence", it's a game of sounds, too. How much of the sound of the word can you give away without giving its "essence"?[/quote]
Actually, being a word game, it *is* about essence. Sometimes words have letters and sounds in common. That's how our language works.
Look, obviously if someone's being a schmedrick and trying "this word rhymes with key-fence", yes, you're gonna buzz them and rightly so. But otherwise, I think Tim's points about root-words, above, are right on the money. "-Saur" has a root meaning. "-Fence" does not.
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FWIW, Sorority/fraternity turned up on $100K(?) pyramid in the last 2 days and there was no cuckoo.
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Thank you Jay, for pointing that out... I knew it had come up recently!
R.
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Barry Jenner (Sp?) during a $100,000 tournament slurred a word in describing "Sterling". he made a sound like SURL and got cuckooed. Now, in the winner's circle I've seen these occour and not been buzzed. For "Things that are Stacked", the clue given was "Bales of Hay" and for "Things that Balance", the clue given was "The Scales of Justice". My gut reaction was that the celeb is about to get buzzed for the prepositional phrase rule, but in these cases they were not. Are there any english majors out there who can explain the differences between prepositional phrases and these kinds of clues?
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[quote name=\'Bill Neuweiler\' post=\'221650\' date=\'Aug 1 2009, 01:07 PM\']Barry Jenner (Sp?) during a $100,000 tournament slurred a word in describing "Sterling". he made a sound like SURL and got cuckooed. Now, in the winner's circle I've seen these occour and not been buzzed. For "Things that are Stacked", the clue given was "Bales of Hay" and for "Things that Balance", the clue given was "The Scales of Justice". My gut reaction was that the celeb is about to get buzzed for the prepositional phrase rule, but in these cases they were not. Are there any english majors out there who can explain the differences between prepositional phrases and these kinds of clues?[/quote]
"Bales of Hay" and "The Scales of Justice" are actual phrases, and that's how you commonly refer to them. Saying "Hay Bales" or "Justice Scales" sound awkward and don't make as much sense. With illegal prepositional phrases (i.e. Tony Randall's "stuffings in little bottles of pills"), you can easily switch that around to say "pill bottle stuffings", although you risk being too descriptive.
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[quote name=\'Bill Neuweiler\' post=\'221650\' date=\'Aug 1 2009, 12:07 PM\']For "Things that are Stacked", the clue given was "Bales of Hay" and for "Things that Balance", the clue given was "The Scales of Justice". My gut reaction was that the celeb is about to get buzzed for the prepositional phrase rule, but in these cases they were not. Are there any english majors out there who can explain the differences between prepositional phrases and these kinds of clues?[/quote]
I think it's not so much an English-language thing as that they accepted common phrases and proper nouns with prepositions in them. For instance, if I was judging "things that are clear", I would accept "the eye of a storm" but not "the glass in a window."
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[quote name=\'Unrealtor\' post=\'221652\' date=\'Aug 1 2009, 02:31 PM\'][quote name=\'Bill Neuweiler\' post=\'221650\' date=\'Aug 1 2009, 12:07 PM\']For "Things that are Stacked", the clue given was "Bales of Hay" and for "Things that Balance", the clue given was "The Scales of Justice". My gut reaction was that the celeb is about to get buzzed for the prepositional phrase rule, but in these cases they were not. Are there any english majors out there who can explain the differences between prepositional phrases and these kinds of clues?[/quote]
I think it's not so much an English-language thing as that they accepted common phrases and proper nouns with prepositions in them. For instance, if I was judging "things that are clear", I would accept "the eye of a storm" but not "the glass in a window."
[/quote]
That's one I've wondered about too. I've seen countless "x of y" clues go unbuzzed on 25KP/100KP and never fully understood why.
/wonders if anyone had their own not-family-friendly clue for "Things That Are Stacked"
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'221663\' date=\'Aug 1 2009, 04:29 PM\']/wonders if anyone had their own not-family-friendly clue for "Things That Are Stacked"[/quote]
"Cousin Bethany"...
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[quote name=\'Bill Neuweiler\' post=\'221650\' date=\'Aug 1 2009, 12:07 PM\']Barry Jenner (Sp?) during a $100,000 tournament slurred a word in describing "Sterling". he made a sound like SURL and got cuckooed. Now, in the winner's circle I've seen these occour and not been buzzed. For "Things that are Stacked", the clue given was "Bales of Hay" and for "Things that Balance", the clue given was "The Scales of Justice". My gut reaction was that the celeb is about to get buzzed for the prepositional phrase rule, but in these cases they were not. Are there any english majors out there who can explain the differences between prepositional phrases and these kinds of clues?[/quote]
I think it has to do with the fact that the word "of" can indicate a unit or increment as well as have a prepositional use. "A suit of armor", "Lots of children", "A barrel of monkeys", etc., are all phrases that use the word "of" but use it to denote how much of the object is actually being described. Using "of" to indicate a segment of a larger object, as in "the middle of the road", "the bottom of a well", "the end of a gun", etc., uses the word in a prepositional context and as a result is an illegal clue.
Granted, this is all completely suppository (in more ways than one), but that's the gist I've gotten with how legal it is to use the word "of" in the WC.
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'221553\' date=\'Jul 31 2009, 01:14 AM\']But Pyramid isn't just about "essence", it's a game of sounds, too. How much of the sound of the word can you give away without giving its "essence"?[/quote]When has anyone associated with the show said "Pyramid is a game of sounds"? Yes, you're allowed to give a clue to a homophone or homonym of the word, but your partner still has to say the word on the screen. It just doesn't matter if they say "No" or "know." (poor example, yes, but it is the one that came completely to mind.)
You may give away as much of the essence of the word as the judge deems acceptable. There is no Supreme Court of Game Shows that you may appeal to if you think the judge was wrong. Sometimes the judge will do something contrary to precedent, or something that seems absurd, but that's all it is. The rules of Pyramid are created not created so that they'll make sense and follow the English language: they're created to make it so that the game isn't easy enough that people are winning the $10,000 at every attempt.
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[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'221719\' date=\'Aug 2 2009, 03:30 PM\']When has anyone associated with the show said "Pyramid is a game of sounds"? Yes, you're allowed to give a clue to a homophone or homonym of the word, but your partner still has to say the word on the screen. It just doesn't matter if they say "No" or "know." (poor example, yes, but it is the one that came completely to mind.)[/quote]Dick Clark sometimes said "we deal in sounds" when situations like that happen. That's what led to me saying that at first. Also, I believe he said that in the Things You Change and Exchange confusion mentioned in an earlier thread. I want to say it happened with Jo Anne Worley in the Winners' Circle on the nighttime show, but I'm not sure at all.
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'221723\' date=\'Aug 2 2009, 01:40 PM\']Dick Clark sometimes said "we deal in sounds" when situations like that happen. That's what led to me saying that at first.[/quote]I didn't know that. But I think he means the homophone issue. Perhaps this is just my way of looking at the game, but I would give more latitude to the clue-giver, and only disqualify the clue if it became very evident that a rule was broken. The examples you gave would not have caused me to push the sounder.
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In one of the "What Not to Do on Pyramid" videos on YouTube, there's a clip of Ed Begley Jr. at the Winner's Circle trying to give clues for "Things that are Clean". At one point, he says "A Kleenex", and doesn't immediately get buzzed. He then repeats the word, and gets buzzed the second time. In the post-mortem, Dick says that the judges probably would've let him get away with it the first time, but in repeating the word they felt he was leading too much to the sound.
Moral of the story: they'll let you get away with a similar sound if it doesn't appear as if you're using the sound itself as the clue.
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I suspect that Dick Clark's explanation was not correct there, actually. It just took a moment for the judge to go "oh right, that's where the name Kleenex comes from".
I've seen the judge miss (or allow, depending on your point of view) cases where the clue giver says the entire word as a homonym, simply because it wasn't noticeable or a mistake. Like (and this is not a good example) saying "this would be a little insect that stings you" for "bee", especially if you tend to say "this would be" for every description.
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In response to the first question, I've seen "Table settings" get buzzed for "Things you place" in a tournament, so the noun/verb argument doesn't hold.
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[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'222017\' date=\'Aug 4 2009, 09:10 PM\']In response to the first question, I've seen "Table settings" get buzzed for "Things you place" in a tournament, so the noun/verb argument doesn't hold.[/quote]
I'm guessing that's a case of synonyms ("setting"="place/placing")...
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Tonight's "THINGS IN AN ELEVATOR"
"The missing 13" -- Legal?
;)
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That's a tricky one. I'd probably buzz it myself, simply on the basis that if it's missing, then it isn't in that elevator, making it an invalid clue.
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It is tricky, because like you I agree it's not in the elevator -- but I also said it wasn't :)
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[quote name=\'ClockGameJohn\' post=\'222039\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 05:22 AM\']but I also said it wasn't :)[/quote]Which means you gave something that isn't in that category so, judging on past rulings and rules descriptions, I'd buzz ya. ;)
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But the "missing 13" is in the elevator, because it isn't!
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No, it isn't in the elevator. That's why it's missing. And in any event, it's not a very good clue.
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Numbered buttons. Other passengers. Bland music. An operator.
There's plenty of better clues, anyway.
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[quote name=\'Loogaroo\' post=\'222043\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 07:12 AM\']No, it isn't in the elevator. That's why it's missing. And in any event, it's not a very good clue.[/quote]
Plus, the majority of elevators are located in smaller buildings, where they're not even close to having 13+ floors.
Would "The DOOR OPEN Button", "The DOOR CLOSE Button", "The THIRD FLOOR Button", be legal clues if you kept using the word "Button"???
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[quote name=\'ClockGameJohn\' post=\'222041\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 02:28 AM\']But the "missing 13" is in the elevator, because it isn't![/quote]
Admitting your own guilt upon committing the crime makes you no less guilty. :)
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Here's a clue I found funky. It came up on a $25K episode last week or the week before, can't remember the male celebrity who said it. "Things You Fail" was the subject, the clue was "an F-marked test" or "an F-scored test." That was NOT buzzed, and I believe they won the big money. Isn't "F" synonymous with "fail?"
It strikes me they've been lenient with the synonyms in the Winners' Circle.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'221651\' date=\'Aug 1 2009\']"Bales of Hay" and "The Scales of Justice" are actual phrases, and that's how you commonly refer to them. Saying "Hay Bales" or "Justice Scales" sound awkward and don't make as much sense. With illegal prepositional phrases (i.e. Tony Randall's "stuffings in little bottles of pills"), you can easily switch that around to say "pill bottle stuffings", although you risk being too descriptive.[/quote]
Yeah, the intention behind the prepositional rule was never to catch players in an arbitrary technicality (though it sometimes seemed that way); my understanding is that it was to prevent them from stringing together separate elements.
For example, Jackée Harry was cuckoo'd for giving the clue "a wolf on a mountain" for "things that howl." Dick explained that she could have legally said "a mountain wolf." One can examine these two phrases and observe no meaningful distinction, but "a wolf on a mountain" could just as easily be expanded to "a wolf on a mountain seeking a mate while gazing up at the night sky." A bale of hay is a single entity, while a wolf and a mountain are separate.
A mountain wolf would be single entity, but I still question that clue's legality, as I don't believe that there is such an animal as a mountain wolf (unlike a mountain goat, mountain lion or mountain gorilla).
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[quote name=\'David Levy\' post=\'222065\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 01:20 PM\']A mountain wolf would be single entity, but I still question that clue's legality, as I don't believe that there is such an animal as a mountain wolf (unlike a mountain goat, mountain lion or mountain gorilla).[/quote]
Not that it's the best clue for it, but would this be at all similar to saying "a Florida man" for the category "Things that are Tanned?"
-Jason
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[quote name=\'TimK2003\' post=\'222047\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 09:27 AM\']Would "The DOOR OPEN Button", "The DOOR CLOSE Button", "The THIRD FLOOR Button", be legal clues if you kept using the word "Button"???[/quote]
I would think that those would work, seeing as you're only naming the button.
[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'222062\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 12:50 PM\']Here's a clue I found funky. It came up on a $25K episode last week or the week before, can't remember the male celebrity who said it. "Things You Fail" was the subject, the clue was "an F-marked test" or "an F-scored test." That was NOT buzzed, and I believe they won the big money. Isn't "F" synonymous with "fail?"[/quote]
Agreed. If saying the first letter gets you a cuckoo in the maingame (unless the category already dictates that all of the words begin with a certain letter), it should also get you a buzz in the WC.
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[quote name=\'JasonA1\' post=\'222068\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 02:10 PM\']Not that it's the best clue for it, but would this be at all similar to saying "a Florida man" for the category "Things that are Tanned?"
-Jason[/quote]
Actually, the best clue for "Things that are Tanned" is George Hamilton's skin.
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[quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222087\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 12:07 PM\']Actually, the best clue for "Things that are Tanned" is George Hamilton's skin.[/quote]
...unless the receiver doesn't know who George Hamilton is.
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[quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222087\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 12:07 PM\'][quote name=\'JasonA1\' post=\'222068\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 02:10 PM\']Not that it's the best clue for it, but would this be at all similar to saying "a Florida man" for the category "Things that are Tanned?"
-Jason[/quote]
Actually, the best clue for "Things that are Tanned" is George Hamilton's skin.
[/quote]
So much better than, oh say..."a sunbather's skin".
/People know what a sunbather is.
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[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'222096\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 03:56 PM\'][quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222087\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 12:07 PM\'][quote name=\'JasonA1\' post=\'222068\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 02:10 PM\']Not that it's the best clue for it, but would this be at all similar to saying "a Florida man" for the category "Things that are Tanned?"
-Jason[/quote]
Actually, the best clue for "Things that are Tanned" is George Hamilton's skin.
[/quote]
So much better than, oh say..."a sunbather's skin".
/People know what a sunbather is.
[/quote]
True, but it's not the clue giver's fault if the receiver is a little ignorant. I still think in theory at least, George Hamilton is a good clue.
On Donnymid, the category was "What Liza Minnelli Might Say" The celeb (Female, forgot who) said "My mother is Judy Garland." The contestant instructed her to pass. I actually yelled at the set "You stupid ______ "
The clue was DEAD ON, the contestant was ignorant, and IMO, Liza Minnelli is pretty famous, even moreso than George Hamilton.
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[quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222100\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 01:39 PM\']True, but it's not the clue giver's fault if the receiver is a little ignorant.[/quote]
Remind me never to play Pyramid with you.
Pyramid is a TEAM game. A good clue-giver will give clues that work FOR THEIR PARTNER.
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[quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222100\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 01:39 PM\']The clue was DEAD ON, the contestant was ignorant[/quote]
Not the only one, I assure you.
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[quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222100\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 04:39 PM\']True, but it's not the clue giver's fault if the receiver is a little ignorant. I still think in theory at least, George Hamilton is a good clue.[/quote]
People might recognize the name, but honestly, how many people do you expect to automatically equate George Hamilton to overtanned skin? In an intense like that, forgive me if I don't automatically think of George Hamilton, as opposed to Kevin's earlier clue.
On Donnymid, the category was "What Liza Minnelli Might Say" The celeb (Female, forgot who) said "My mother is Judy Garland." The contestant instructed her to pass. I actually yelled at the set "You stupid ______ "
The clue was DEAD ON, the contestant was ignorant, and IMO, Liza Minnelli is pretty famous, even moreso than George Hamilton.
So you've never had a brain fart where the name is right on the tip of your tongue, and just couldn't get the name to click? Forgetting a celebrity's name in a high pressure situation under bright lights and the glare of audience members does not make someone ignorant.
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[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'222096\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 03:56 PM\'][quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222087\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 12:07 PM\']Actually, the best clue for "Things that are Tanned" is George Hamilton's skin.[/quote]
So much better than, oh say..."a sunbather's skin".
/People know what a sunbather is.
[/quote]I would have thought that "sunbathe" and "tan" were synonymous.
On Donnymid, the category was "What Liza Minnelli Might Say" The celeb (Female, forgot who) said "My mother is Judy Garland." The contestant instructed her to pass. I actually yelled at the set "You stupid ______ "
The clue was DEAD ON, the contestant was ignorant, and IMO, Liza Minnelli is pretty famous, even moreso than George Hamilton.
I don't know if "ignorant" is the word. I mean, we've seen that happen in the front game plenty of time, too. It's just that the name escapes. How old was the contestant, anyways?
[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'222104\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 04:41 PM\']Pyramid is a TEAM game. A good clue-giver will give clues that work FOR THEIR PARTNER.[/quote]But how could you know that the clue will work until you try it? George Hamilton is a good clue, the same way "Duke Ellington's Ladies" would be a good clue for "Sophisticated Things" still. I just don't think it would be "the perfect clue" anymore. They have expiration dates...kinda.
/The last thing I remember GH doing were those Ritz commercials.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'222110\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 05:18 PM\'][quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222100\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 04:39 PM\']
On Donnymid, the category was "What Liza Minnelli Might Say" The celeb (Female, forgot who) said "My mother is Judy Garland." The contestant instructed her to pass. I actually yelled at the set "You stupid ______ "
The clue was DEAD ON, the contestant was ignorant, and IMO, Liza Minnelli is pretty famous, even moreso than George Hamilton.[/quote]
So you've never had a brain fart where the name is right on the tip of your tongue, and just couldn't get the name to click? Forgetting a celebrity's name in a high pressure situation under bright lights and the glare of audience members does not make someone ignorant.
[/quote]
No no. The contestant didn't have a brain fart, the contestant just plain didn't know who Liza and/or Judy were. She didn't even pause to think, she said "pass it." The look on her face was saying "I don't know."
To answer the age question, I'd say this lady contestant was in her 20s.
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[quote name=\'BillCullen1\' post=\'222100\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 03:39 PM\']On Donnymid, the category was "What Liza Minnelli Might Say" The celeb (Female, forgot who) said "My mother is Judy Garland." The contestant instructed her to pass. I actually yelled at the set "You stupid ______ "
The clue was DEAD ON, the contestant was ignorant, and IMO, Liza Minnelli is pretty famous, even moreso than George Hamilton.[/quote]
I'm going to defend your choice of the word "ignorant." An ignorant person is, by definition, someone who lacks knowledge, whether it's specific pieces of information or a general lack of knowledge. This contestant was indeed ignorant.
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'222114\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 02:25 PM\']But how could you know that the clue will work until you try it? George Hamilton is a good clue[/quote]
It's a good clue, but it's not a MONEY clue. (Which I believe is what you're getting at. I'm not arguing with you, just quoting you as a frame of reference.) If they know who he is, yeah, "tanned" is pretty much his chief identifying characteristic. And if they don't, and you don't have anything else lined up, you're farked.
I would certainly not call someone "a stupid ______" (as the OP of this subthread claims to have) for calling for a pass on the Judy Garland thing if they didn't know who Judy Garland was. I might apply that to the celebrity for putting all of their eggs in that basket, though.
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[quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'222071\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 01:24 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'222062\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 12:50 PM\']Here's a clue I found funky. It came up on a $25K episode last week or the week before, can't remember the male celebrity who said it. "Things You Fail" was the subject, the clue was "an F-marked test" or "an F-scored test." That was NOT buzzed, and I believe they won the big money. Isn't "F" synonymous with "fail?"[/quote]
Agreed. If saying the first letter gets you a cuckoo in the maingame (unless the category already dictates that all of the words begin with a certain letter), it should also get you a buzz in the WC.
[/quote]
I caught that too. In fact, I think they have buzzed it in the Winner's Circle. ISTR the clue "an R.N." for THINGS THAT ARE REGISTERED.
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'222114\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 05:25 PM\'][quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'222104\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 04:41 PM\']Pyramid is a TEAM game. A good clue-giver will give clues that work FOR THEIR PARTNER.[/quote]But how could you know that the clue will work until you try it? [/quote]
Thank you. My point exactly.
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[quote name=\'Jay Temple\' post=\'222121\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 06:12 PM\'][quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'222071\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 01:24 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'222062\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 12:50 PM\']Here's a clue I found funky. It came up on a $25K episode last week or the week before, can't remember the male celebrity who said it. "Things You Fail" was the subject, the clue was "an F-marked test" or "an F-scored test." That was NOT buzzed, and I believe they won the big money. Isn't "F" synonymous with "fail?"[/quote]
Agreed. If saying the first letter gets you a cuckoo in the maingame (unless the category already dictates that all of the words begin with a certain letter), it should also get you a buzz in the WC.
[/quote]
I caught that too. In fact, I think they have buzzed it in the Winner's Circle. ISTR the clue "an R.N." for THINGS THAT ARE REGISTERED.
[/quote]
I don't know if the two situations are analogous, though. R.N. does stand for "registered nurse", but I haven't seen anything that says F is an intial for "fail".
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'222124\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 06:40 PM\'][quote name=\'Jay Temple\' post=\'222121\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 06:12 PM\'][quote name=\'Twentington\' post=\'222071\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 01:24 PM\'][quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'222062\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 12:50 PM\']Here's a clue I found funky. It came up on a $25K episode last week or the week before, can't remember the male celebrity who said it. "Things You Fail" was the subject, the clue was "an F-marked test" or "an F-scored test." That was NOT buzzed, and I believe they won the big money. Isn't "F" synonymous with "fail?"[/quote]
Agreed. If saying the first letter gets you a cuckoo in the maingame (unless the category already dictates that all of the words begin with a certain letter), it should also get you a buzz in the WC.
[/quote]
I caught that too. In fact, I think they have buzzed it in the Winner's Circle. ISTR the clue "an R.N." for THINGS THAT ARE REGISTERED.
[/quote]
I don't know if the two situations are analogous, though. R.N. does stand for "registered nurse", but I haven't seen anything that says F is an intial for "fail".
[/quote]
true to all of that. Does anyone out there recall the time that dick stopped a $10,000 celebration because he feared the judge would retract the win during the commercial? The celeb gave the clue "Red China" for "Communist Countries". It could have been considered either descriptive or a synonym. The end result was neither, the win remained intact. Or the time the celebrity gave the clue "UCLA" for "Names of Colleges and Universities"? Again, the win was questioned going into break, and again it stood. (the explination given was that of the differing rules from the front game to the winner's circle.) There were questionable buzzes that were remedied on the spot--they came back from commercial and gave the contestant another shot at the box with the estimated remaining time: Buzzing a "Tropical Bird" for "Exotic Things" and buzzing "Magnets" for "Attractive Things". (the latter was simply a matter of awarding the $25000 as the contestant provided the right answer as the buzzer sounded) I think it should be noted that the judge always appeared to be tyring to make fair decisions, even reversing them as necessary after more critical thought. This leads me to believe that the judging of the game was not EXACTLY a science. However it got me thinking, has anyone here actually been on the program? And if so, do you remember the rules furnished to you prior to the start of the game? If there were a source rule book or reference guide, aside from the rules from the 'copy of the Pyramid home game', it would definitely help.
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[quote name=\'Bill Neuweiler\' post=\'222128\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 06:43 PM\']The celeb gave the clue "Red China" for "Communist Countries". It could have been considered either descriptive or a synonym. The end result was neither, the win remained intact. Or the time the celebrity gave the clue "UCLA" for "Names of Colleges and Universities"? Again, the win was questioned going into break, and again it stood. (the explination given was that of the differing rules from the front game to the winner's circle.) . . . This leads me to believe that the judging of the game was not EXACTLY a science.[/quote]
I would have buzzed Red China, but upon further review, "red" is symbolic of communism not synonymous. UCLA still seems fishy to me, although it's not so much of an unfairly helpful clue as a slip-up, so it's reasonable to allow it.
I recall the story that when Bob Stewart proposed Password to Mark Goodson asked pointedly how they'd know if a clue was allowable. Stewart replied he'd get an expert from the dictionary. As it turns out, Password judging is much less subjective than Pyramid's. Pyramid is the game that could use an authority.
And I still say "F" is synonymous with "fail"--otherwise, they'd give you an E!
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[quote name=\'Neumms\' post=\'222153\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 06:48 PM\']And I still say "F" is synonymous with "fail"--otherwise, they'd give you an E![/quote]
Five years ago, in the Seattle Public Schools, you DID get an E. Recently, it was replaced with N, for No Credit.
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[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'222156\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 09:53 PM\']Five years ago, in the Seattle Public Schools, you DID get an E. Recently, it was replaced with N, for No Credit.[/quote]Yeah, all throughout my school career, E was a failing grade. No F.
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[quote name=\'chad1m\' post=\'222158\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 10:03 PM\'][quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'222156\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 09:53 PM\']Five years ago, in the Seattle Public Schools, you DID get an E. Recently, it was replaced with N, for No Credit.[/quote]Yeah, all throughout my school career, E was a failing grade. No F.
[/quote]
Same for Virginia...then I got to college.
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[quote name=\'chad1m\' post=\'222158\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 08:03 PM\']Yeah, all throughout my school career, E was a failing grade. No F.[/quote]
Back when I was in grade school, E was "Excellent" and U was given for "Unsatisfactory". I believe the grading system we had back then was E, S, A, B, and U (in A,B,C,D,F order). I'm fairly certain on all of those except the D equivalent. They switched back to the traditional letters in junior high.
I'd be inclined to buzz "An F-scored test" for "Things you fail" not because of the F being a synonym for Fail (which it really isn't), but because it isn't an item that falls in the category. You don't fail an F-scored test, you receive an F for failing the test.
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[quote name=\'isucgv\' post=\'222167\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 11:15 PM\']I'd be inclined to buzz "An F-scored test" for "Things you fail" not because of the F being a synonym for Fail (which it really isn't), but because it isn't an item that falls in the category. You don't fail an F-scored test, you receive an F for failing the test.[/quote]
How about "A low-scoring test"?
/Judge: *ding*
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[quote name=\'CarShark\' post=\'222114\' date=\'Aug 5 2009\']I would have thought that "sunbathe" and "tan" were synonymous.[/quote]
"A beachgoer's skin."
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Fail is listed under "F" in the three dictionaries I checked (Random House unabridged, Websters Ninth Collegiate, Am. Heritage Dict. 4th ed.). So I would definitely buzz it.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'222159\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 09:06 PM\'][quote name=\'chad1m\' post=\'222158\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 10:03 PM\'][quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'222156\' date=\'Aug 5 2009, 09:53 PM\']Five years ago, in the Seattle Public Schools, you DID get an E. Recently, it was replaced with N, for No Credit.[/quote]Yeah, all throughout my school career, E was a failing grade. No F.
[/quote]
Same for Virginia...then I got to college.
[/quote]Cripes.
What a moronic, pat-on-the-back, "we can't hurt junior's feelings" system. Then they wonder why kids grow up to be complete losers and whinebags later in life.
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'222215\' date=\'Aug 6 2009, 12:58 PM\']What a moronic, pat-on-the-back, "we can't hurt junior's feelings" system. Then they wonder why kids grow up to be complete losers and whinebags later in life.[/quote]...I figured they did it because it was the letter that came after D.
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[quote name=\'chad1m\' post=\'222216\' date=\'Aug 6 2009, 10:02 AM\'][quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'222215\' date=\'Aug 6 2009, 12:58 PM\']What a moronic, pat-on-the-back, "we can't hurt junior's feelings" system. Then they wonder why kids grow up to be complete losers and whinebags later in life.[/quote]...I figured they did it because it was the letter that came after D.[/quote]
I lol'd.
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'222215\' date=\'Aug 6 2009, 12:58 PM\']Cripes.
What a moronic, pat-on-the-back, "we can't hurt junior's feelings" system. Then they wonder why kids grow up to be complete losers and whinebags later in life.[/quote]
With everything going electronic these days, they could just replace the "F"/"NP"/"E" with this hyperlink (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Dshk1XfDc\").
/Haven't used that one in a while
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[quote name=\'Mr. Matté\' post=\'222221\' date=\'Aug 6 2009, 02:46 PM\']With everything going electronic these days, they could just replace the "F"/"NP"/"E" with this link (http://\"http://ronka.ytmnd.com/\")
hyperlink (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4\").[/quote]
There, fixed that for you.
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[quote name=\'WhammyPower\' post=\'222222\' date=\'Aug 6 2009, 12:57 PM\'][quote name=\'Mr. Matté\' post=\'222221\' date=\'Aug 6 2009, 02:46 PM\']With everything going electronic these days, they could just replace the "F"/"NP"/"E" with this link (http://\"http://ronka.ytmnd.com/\")
hyperlink (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4\").[/quote]
There, fixed that for you.
[/quote]
You didn't fix anything. If you're going to use an old gag like this, at least do it right.