The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: TimK2003 on June 15, 2009, 08:50:35 PM
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First off, to those not in the radio &/or TV biz, "Backtiming" is when a piece of music or song starts at a certain time in order to finish at an exact time, or "mark".
In radio, some songs (especially on satellite-fed networks) are backtimed so the songs end EXACTLY at the top of the hour, or 5-10 seconds before to allow for a legal ID.
Anyhoo, back to game shows:
What shows would start rolling their theme music so that the music's ending would match the official ending of the show? And which shows did it "all-natural" -- without switching to a second music source which provided the last few seconds of the theme, like "Bullseye" often did?
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The original "Jeopardy" and "Who, What or Where"
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All of the current syndie games backtime their themes...at least I think all of them do, not sure about TP: AP.
From memory:
-Pitfall
-The Gary Kroeger season of Newlywed Game
-TTTT00
-Russian Roulette
And I think most British shows do so as well. Personally, I'm not a fan of the practice, but that's just me.
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Most of the Nick shows. I know DD and "Make the Grade" for sure. Believe "Finders Keepers" did it as well.
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[quote name=\'Chief-O\' post=\'218124\' date=\'Jun 15 2009, 10:41 PM\']Most of the Nick shows. I know DD and "Make the Grade" for sure. Believe "Finders Keepers" did it as well.[/quote]
Wait...I'm pretty sure they just played the Finders Keepers theme in a loop until the credits were done, and even then, the credits' ending didn't match up with the theme's "ending"
But then again, I could be wrong.
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[quote name=\'Chief-O\' post=\'218124\' date=\'Jun 15 2009, 11:41 PM\']Most of the Nick shows. I know DD and "Make the Grade" for sure. Believe "Finders Keepers" did it as well.[/quote]
I seem to remember that as well, but it's been 20 years since I've seen Finders Keepers. Add Get the Picture, Arcade, and Guts to the list.
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From the many episodes I saw on Nick Games and Sports, the Eure episodes were backtimed, but the syndie Toffler episodes weren't.
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[quote name=\'Chief-O\' post=\'218124\' date=\'Jun 15 2009, 11:41 PM\']Most of the Nick shows.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure you can exclude Legends of the Hidden Temple
/ObGS: You can probably still hear Dee Bradley Baker (voice of Olmec) on Nick somewhere doing voices for another show
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[quote name=\'Joe Mello\' post=\'218137\' date=\'Jun 16 2009, 02:20 AM\']/ObGS: You can probably still hear Dee Bradley Baker (voice of Olmec) on Nick somewhere doing voices for another show[/quote]
He does a few voices on SpongeBob (Wiki says Squilliam Fancyson and Bubble Bass).
/Also, he's Klaus the fish on American Dad
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I'm told Trebek HR did this for a few weeks in the summer of 1979, as well.
Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby")
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The last few weeks of "The Big Showdown" did. "Hollywood's Talking" also did. And I believe "Take a Good Look" also was a culprit with its original swingtime theme.
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The last episode of Dream House in '84 did! Too bad NBC had to cut most of it off with their "coming up next" voice-over promos and background music.
Most of the Canadian shows produced in Montreal for CTV did, but the ones from Toronto and Vancouver usually didn't.
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Ouicksilver and Free 4 All both did this IIRC.
If Merv Griffin's Crosswords hasn't been mentioned, that's one as well.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'218111\' date=\'Jun 15 2009, 08:08 PM\']not sure about TP: AP.[/quote]
It does, but I wouldn't be surprised if they add it in post on that one because IIRC there're no audience nats during it.
Speaking of editing in post, they once had to re-send an episode because it was originally sent with a few seconds of it, that was supposed to have been a cutaway shot, reading "MEDIA OFFLINE".
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I guess this thread begs another question:
which bugs you more - never hearing the end of a theme; or never hearing the beginning?
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'218383\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 07:53 PM\']which bugs you more - never hearing the end of a theme; or never hearing the beginning?[/quote]
Usually the end. Though here's a twist: for years, I would try desperately to hear the end of the Hollywood Squares theme. Now, it's not hearing that piccolo strain in the middle that bugs me.
Regarding the original thread, did the Jim Perry Sale of the Century have a backtimed closing theme? Or did they use a different piece of music for their "Reg Grundy Production" signature.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'218383\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 06:53 PM\']I guess this thread begs another question:
which bugs you more - never hearing the end of a theme; or never hearing the beginning?[/quote]
For me, it was a treat to hear more of the ending when they had to stretch or do the long credit roll. You would always hope that they'd reach the end of the theme.
I always disliked the later Bob Stewart shows (or was it the Bob Cobert compositions, since it would happen on Blockbusters as well???) for the fact that they would always "restart" the themes as soon as they would come back from the promotional considerations.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'218383\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 06:53 PM\']I guess this thread begs another question:[/quote]
Don't make me stand behind my lectern and explain what "begging the question" really means, goldarnit.
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[quote name=\'ActualRetailMike\' post=\'218409\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 10:12 PM\']did the Jim Perry Sale of the Century have a backtimed closing theme? Or did they use a different piece of music for their "Reg Grundy Production" signature.[/quote]
It was a different piece of music. It came in at different points in the song depending on the length of the credits.
Burst in with a thud it did while Jay Stewart or Don Morrow was informing the waiting world that the preceding was a Reg Grundy Production.
Likewise, this was the practice on Scrabble and on Bruce Forsyth's Hot Streak.
Then, sometimes, they'd rejoin the program's theme in progress for a few seconds if time allowed.
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[quote name=\'ActualRetailMike\' post=\'218409\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 10:12 PM\']Regarding the original thread, did the Jim Perry Sale of the Century have a backtimed closing theme? Or did they use a different piece of music for their "Reg Grundy Production" signature.[/quote]
No on the backtiming, and they used the standard RG fanfare during the closing.
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For me, it was a treat to hear more of the ending when they had to stretch or do the long credit roll. You would always hope that they'd reach the end of the theme.
I liked that too - unfortunately it didn't happen often enough!
I always disliked the later Bob Stewart shows (or was it the Bob Cobert compositions, since it would happen on Blockbusters as well???) for the fact that they would always "restart" the themes as soon as they would come back from the promotional considerations.
I wonder who would have made the decision to do that - the music supervisor, or the producer/director? FWIW, there was an episode of Blockbusters where they didn't restart - it was part way through the 20-win streak of the mother-daughter team. I remember seeing it on GSN and was surprised that they let the whole them play through. It was long credit day that day too. If they did it once, why couldn't they have done it more often?
I always liked it when the music supervisors cued up some of the music to different spots - sometimes you'd get to hear a different part of the theme. Even better when they forgot to recue the cart and it played through to the end - that didn't happen often enough either!
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'218947\' date=\'Jun 24 2009, 07:13 PM\']I wonder who would have made the decision to do that - the music supervisor, or the producer/director? FWIW, there was an episode of Blockbusters where they didn't restart - it was part way through the 20-win streak of the mother-daughter team. I remember seeing it on GSN and was surprised that they let the whole them play through. It was long credit day that day too. If they did it once, why couldn't they have done it more often?[/quote]
That was the one thing that annoyed me about the first season of 80s Pyramid. I always wanted to hear that sweet bass part towards the end, and would be disappointed when it would cut back to the beginning before hitting that part of the theme.
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One of the cool things about the game show checkerboards of the '70's was that since every show was once (or twice) a week, you'd usually get a full credit roll and hear more of the theme on each show. I didn't know the respective themes had an end until I saw James "Price" and Cullen "Pyramid."
Another thing I remember on "The Big Showdown" was that very occassionaly the closing theme would end and the music would segue to the slightly slower main theme. On those days, you knew you'd see the full credits (and hear an ABC announcer promoting that night's "Barney Miller.)
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I always liked it when the music supervisors cued up some of the music to different spots - sometimes you'd get to hear a different part of the theme. Even better when they forgot to recue the cart and it played through to the end - that didn't happen often enough either!
It happened once on a 1979 syndie FF...as luck would have it, there was a full credit roll that day, so the theme almost reached the end, something that hadn't happened since they started looping the first part of the theme after the first week.
Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby")
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[quote name=\'GrandMasterGalvatron\' post=\'218190\' date=\'Jun 16 2009, 08:49 PM\']Ouicksilver and Free 4 All both did this IIRC.
If Merv Griffin's Crosswords hasn't been mentioned, that's one as well.[/quote]
Except for the first few weeks! The earliest shows were not backtimed nor were they restarted after the commercial plugs. As a result, we ended up hearing just last few seconds of the middle section, and the last part repeated until the show ended. On full-credit days that meant maybe 2 to 3 repeats of the last part.
Bill
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USA's version of Chain Reaction had the chance to make it to the end several times but those plans went down the ewtrou as they'd start the theme somewhere in the middle, get near the end, then re-start near the middle again....multiple times. I remember thinking, "Aw! Why?"
1989-90 Jackpot! pulled that re-start jazz, too.
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I never heard the entire theme for $25K/$100K Pyramid until I heard it on Davidson's version....I honestly thought it was a new part added to the theme, the first time I heard it (the section at the very end, before it starts over).
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It always sounded that Marshall's Hollywood Squares theme (the one that made it to the game show cd) was backtimed so when the credit roll was over, they were always at the part of the the theme when the vocalists first started to sing the da-da-da's, even though they were never at the end.
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[quote name=\'TimK2003\' post=\'219386\' date=\'Jul 3 2009, 03:55 PM\']It always sounded that Marshall's Hollywood Squares theme (the one that made it to the game show cd) was backtimed so when the credit roll was over, they were always at the part of the the theme when the vocalists first started to sing the da-da-da's, even though they were never at the end.[/quote]
No, HS was never backtimed. Always started from the beginning, whichever theme they were using.
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No, HS was never backtimed. Always started from the beginning, whichever theme they were using.
You're right about that, but there several episodes in the mid-late '70s where it did reach its conclusion. I also remember a Secret Square game where it was cued to the wrong spot during the prize description and it reached the conclusion there too.
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[quote name=\'davemackey\' post=\'219425\' date=\'Jul 3 2009, 07:27 PM\']HS was never backtimed. Always started from the beginning, whichever theme they were using.[/quote]
I'll have to agree. As someone who used to hover over the HS closing credits like a hawk, in hopes of hearing the end of the theme music, only once did I ever hear the modified "da da da" with the vocals on TV. This was because they cued the music that time so they only played the first/original "da da da" part once instead of the usual two times, and I knew I was in for something good when they were already into the keyboard part when the onscreen text message came on (this is that message that appeared against a steady background; not sure if it was the infamous "bluff answers" disclaimer, or "The following companies have furnished prizes to the production company...")
Also exactly once, I did in fact hear the "da da da-da da. Daaaaaaaa..." ending on the show, albeit cut off quickly. But that time, they somehow managed to avoid both the vocalized "da da da" part and the modified two-measure bridge between the two iterations of the opening strain (i.e., "da-da, hawww, da da-da da-da"; don't you just love onomatopoeia?) which ends in a rapid string of snare drum beats.
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[quote name=\'ActualRetailMike\' post=\'218409\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 09:12 PM\']for years, I would try desperately to hear the end of the Hollywood Squares theme. Now, it's not hearing that piccolo strain in the middle that bugs me.[/quote]
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but for those who may not know, the full second theme to The Hollywood Squares---piccolo strain and all---is at this link: http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html (http://\"http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html\") (#3 on the left).
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[quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'230819\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 02:15 PM\']Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but for those who may not know, the full second theme to The Hollywood Squares---piccolo strain and all---is at this link: http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html (http://\"http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html\") (#3 on the left).[/quote]
I'm about to lose my job on account of screaming "YES!" repeatedly at the top of my lungs in the office!
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[quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'230819\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 02:15 PM\'][quote name=\'ActualRetailMike\' post=\'218409\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 09:12 PM\']for years, I would try desperately to hear the end of the Hollywood Squares theme. Now, it's not hearing that piccolo strain in the middle that bugs me.[/quote]
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but for those who may not know, the full second theme to The Hollywood Squares---piccolo strain and all---is at this link: http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html (http://\"http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html\") (#3 on the left).
[/quote]
Wow. Thanks for the update... has this been posted in the A/V club yet?
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[quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'230819\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 12:15 PM\'][quote name=\'ActualRetailMike\' post=\'218409\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 09:12 PM\']for years, I would try desperately to hear the end of the Hollywood Squares theme. Now, it's not hearing that piccolo strain in the middle that bugs me.[/quote]
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but for those who may not know, the full second theme to The Hollywood Squares---piccolo strain and all---is at this link: http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html (http://\"http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html\") (#3 on the left).
[/quote]
WOW! Are those tracks clean or what?? Plus this full version doesn't repeat the first 'verse'. This is yet another early Christmas Gift for all of us on TVPMM.
Also worth noting is the game/match win cue!!
Sounds like there is still some hope for the original "Storybook Squares" theme to surface someday.
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[quote name=\'davemackey\' post=\'230821\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 11:28 AM\'][quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'230819\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 02:15 PM\'][quote name=\'ActualRetailMike\' post=\'218409\' date=\'Jun 18 2009, 09:12 PM\']for years, I would try desperately to hear the end of the Hollywood Squares theme. Now, it's not hearing that piccolo strain in the middle that bugs me.[/quote]
Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but for those who may not know, the full second theme to The Hollywood Squares---piccolo strain and all---is at this link: http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html (http://\"http://www.tvpmm.com/documents/54.html\") (#3 on the left).
[/quote]
Wow. Thanks for the update... has this been posted in the A/V club yet?
[/quote]
I just did. (http://\"http://gameshow.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19124\")
/A theme find like this deserves multiple mentions
//What's next, the Whew music?
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[quote name=\'Casey Buck\' post=\'230824\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 11:41 AM\']//What's next, the Whew music?[/quote]
That sound you would here would be coming directly from my bunk.
/literally
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//What's next, the Whew music?
That's what I'm hoping for...especially the closing theme please! :)
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WOW! Are those tracks clean or what?? Plus this full version doesn't repeat the first 'verse'. This is yet another early Christmas Gift for all of us on TVPMM.
What I can't understand is why they edited the theme in the late '70s in the first place. I know that sometimes shows will use slightly different music cues to spice things up a bit, but the edit did nothing for it. It just repeated one section and took out another. On the GSN CD you can even hear where the edit is. I don't get it.
Oh well...it's great to hear the full theme...finally!
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'230834\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 03:18 PM\']
WOW! Are those tracks clean or what?? Plus this full version doesn't repeat the first 'verse'. This is yet another early Christmas Gift for all of us on TVPMM.
What I can't understand is why they edited the theme in the late '70s in the first place. I know that sometimes shows will use slightly different music cues to spice things up a bit, but the edit did nothing for it. It just repeated one section and took out another. On the GSN CD you can even hear where the edit is. I don't get it.
Oh well...it's great to hear the full theme...finally!
[/quote]
In some of the many episodes I have in my collection, there seemed to be at least 2 "edited" versions of the closing theme -- the one where the first verse is repeated and the piccolo part deleted, and another version in which they extend the keyboard solo a bit.
Now that I think about it more, were the "edited" versions of the theme just heard on the syndicated/nighttime version of the show? I don't seem to recall hearing the edits in the few daytime versions that I have.
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'230827\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 03:54 PM\'][quote name=\'Casey Buck\' post=\'230824\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 11:41 AM\']//What's next, the Whew music?[/quote]
That sound you would here would be coming directly from my bunk.
/literally
[/quote]
Are sure that's just not the gazpacho?
/Hollywood Squares full theme FTW
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Reminded by the MTV reruns, Remote Control's theme ended when the show did. And some quick observations in lieu of starting a new thread - spotted Don Bleu on the RC wall of "fame," and Steve played something that resembled the 70s WML? theme (to me anyway) for a category called "What's Their Line?"
-Jason
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[quote name=\'JasonA1\' post=\'230876\' date=\'Nov 19 2009, 01:58 AM\']Reminded by the MTV reruns, Remote Control's theme ended when the show did.[/quote]
I don't think RC's theme was really backtimed. It sounds very much like an 8-bar loop with the end stuck on whenever they needed it.
/Example from recent YT upload (http://\"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2HKY_GRHUM#t=6m28s\")
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[quote name=\'WhammyPower\' post=\'230890\' date=\'Nov 19 2009, 09:30 AM\']I don't think RC's theme was really backtimed. It sounds very much like an 8-bar loop with the end stuck on whenever they needed it.[/quote]
The first theme for GSN's Lingo seemed to be the same way: it was a simple 8-bar pattern that was basically the same melody twice, but with a slight variation the second time, followed by the first half of the 8-bar melody in a higher key (and possibly looped as well), then the fanfare tacked on at the end.
Speaking of backtiming, how did Trebek Jeopardy! handle its first theme? The full theme has the main melody in F, A-flat, B, down to D, back up to F, then back to A-flat, with the last three notes and the "dum dum" ending. (Both A-flat portions and the D portion were on sax.) I have seen a couple early eps online, and I don't remember the B or D portions playing during the credits.
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[quote name=\'TimK2003\' post=\'230841\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 06:34 PM\'][quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'230834\' date=\'Nov 18 2009, 03:18 PM\']
WOW! Are those tracks clean or what?? Plus this full version doesn't repeat the first 'verse'. This is yet another early Christmas Gift for all of us on TVPMM.
What I can't understand is why they edited the theme in the late '70s in the first place. I know that sometimes shows will use slightly different music cues to spice things up a bit, but the edit did nothing for it. It just repeated one section and took out another. On the GSN CD you can even hear where the edit is. I don't get it.
[/quote]
In some of the many episodes I have in my collection, there seemed to be at least 2 "edited" versions of the closing theme -- the one where the first verse is repeated and the piccolo part deleted, and another version in which they extend the keyboard solo a bit.
Now that I think about it more, were the "edited" versions of the theme just heard on the syndicated/nighttime version of the show? I don't seem to recall hearing the edits in the few daytime versions that I have.
[/quote]
***Sorry for not addressing this matter sooner...though it has taken nearly a month to respond to this, those who know me well are aware of the less-than-timely way I seem to handle correspondence these days...in fact, this one might qualify as "swift" in comparison to other emails and messages I've eventually completed...buuuuut anyway...***
While doing research for this reply, I found that there may be more random edits out there than I (or probably most others) was aware of. When reviewing episodes currently available on Hulu, I discovered at least two episodes in which the first verse was repeated while the piccolo part remained intact. And there is also the piccolo-free edit that appeared on the GSN CD that differed from the choppy on-air edit many hardcore fans were aware of. Let me clear up the mystery regarding at least ONE of the edits that are now out there.
During the production of GSN's second CD of game show themes, I was working as closely as possible with the project guy at Varese. For those of us "fans" who were providing any sort of input into this volume, it was agreed that we wanted this CD to include as much rare hard-to-find material as possible. Of course, that made finding source material difficult at best and even when locating source material, finding it in good enough condition to use on a commercial recording. Eventually, the Varese rep thought he had obtained all the needed material and sent a CD of the material for me to review. Good thing he did as there were several mystery tracks misidentified as well-known titles. Also, a couple of tracks that were supplied were much shorter versions than we had hoped for so I requested he approach the source he obtained them from and try to get the longer versions instead (he was only somewhat successful).
My greatest input, however, came into play with themes we'd received with multiple cues (generally opening and closing themes), such as "Let's Make A Deal" and "Split Second". Rather than just use one cue out of the assortment we received, I did my best to provide time cues/edit points in an effort to combine as many of the openings and closings as possible into one continuous track. For the most part, my instructions were followed but there were a couple of instances where he combined them at different points, resulting in at least one track that makes my hair stand on end every time I hear it.
ANYWAY, it was during this process that I had to make a decision about our copy of "The Hollywood Squares". At that time, the only version that anyone had unearthed was the one heard mostly in the later syndie episodes that included the notorious missing piccolo edit. Since most people were probably not aware of that edit, I feared that including the track "as-is" would sound like something had gone wrong during the production of the CD, leading to confused and potentially angry customers. It was agreed that I would create a cleaner edit that would remove any sudden skips and flow from start to finish as smoothly as possible. The end result is what eventually was used on the final release. While it wasn't perfect, I felt it was about as good as we do, removing the phantom jump while retaining the overall integrity of the original theme.
If you'd like to hear what the source material sounded like prior to my input, the curator of the amazing TVPMM has added it to his site as "Hollywood Squares - 1970 - Closing Theme - Long B". Enjoy! :)
Jake
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One game show I know had a backtimed theme consistently: Wordplay.