The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: lobster on February 18, 2008, 05:35:51 PM
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the TTD bonus thread inspired this .. when a game show has an element that is purported to be "random", is there really an S&P requirement that some mechanism is in place to truly "randomize", or do producers just hand-pick what goes where, since that's just as "random" to the contestant? Example: If the contestant has no prior knowledge of the whereabouts of the dragon, what difference does it make if it's truly "shuffled" by a computer, or hand-picked to be placed by a person?
right before my Lingo ep, this guy ("Al") told us that he was a 3rd party compliance contractor (who said he's done this for 20 years and for tons of game shows) and his whole job was to "randomize the words and make sure they're fairly distributed" --- which I thought was funny and pointless .. couldn't the producers of the show do that themselves without facing any kind of unfairness scrutiny? .. or at least load the words into some huge database that just spits out the words randomly if they were really worried about that?
/i want his job
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I think there are some FCC rules that say you can't call something random if it isn't. How often did PYL say they're board bounced "randomly"?
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Well, how about D/ND? Does Howie ever mention that the dollar values are randomly selected? I've seen a couple of episodes where it seemed like much more of a coincidence that the $1 mil was in the selected case, i.e. the NFL episode with the Indianapolis Colts fan. The million dollar case just "happened" to be in number 18, or Peyton Manning's number. Mm hmm sure, Endemol.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'178152\' date=\'Feb 18 2008, 06:09 PM\']
Well, how about D/ND? Does Howie ever mention that the dollar values are randomly selected? I've seen a couple of episodes where it seemed like much more of a coincidence that the $1 mil was in the selected case, i.e. the NFL episode with the Indianapolis Colts fan. The million dollar case just "happened" to be in number 18, or Peyton Manning's number. Mm hmm sure, Endemol.
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If my memory serves he says "placed there by a thrid party." He does not say random.
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[quote name=\'whoserman\' post=\'178151\' date=\'Feb 18 2008, 04:40 PM\']
I think there are some FCC rules that say you can't call something random if it isn't. How often did PYL say they're board bounced "randomly"?
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that's what I'm saying though -- Must a computer with a true randomizing algorithm be involved for something to be considered random? -- if I hide a ball under a cup, and show you four cups and tell you one of the holds the ball, as far as YOU are concerned, it IS random, even though I chose the placement of the ball personally.
Certainly when the chip is placed in the shell game (or the X in Tic Tac Toe, or the cards in Punch-a-Bunch) on TPiR, some staffer or producer just CHOOSES the placements, wouldn't you think? Same with the "CAR" card on Card Sharks, placement of dollar amounts in envelopes each celebrity on HS held, etc. Do they really need to have an S&P-type third party do all of that? If the contestant doesn't see the placement, it is random to THEM, true?
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[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'178154\' date=\'Feb 18 2008, 06:24 PM\']
if I hide a ball under a cup, and show you four cups and tell you one of the holds the ball, as far as YOU are concerned, it IS random, even though I chose the placement of the ball personally. [/quote]Certainly when the chip is placed in the shell game (or the X in Tic Tac Toe, or the cards in Punch-a-Bunch) on TPiR, some staffer or producer just CHOOSES the placements, wouldn't you think?
But in both of these situations, the contestant is never told that "We randomly mixed the slips" or even in your own example, you didn't tell me "I randomly selected a cup".
I can't remember the show in question, but I distinctively remember them saying something to the order of: "We have randomly placed x amounts behind x numbered squares...good luck."
IIRC, "Treasure Hunt" used a randomly selection (drawing a number out of a hat/box) to pick which box hid the jackpot.
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'178156\' date=\'Feb 18 2008, 03:31 PM\']
IIRC, "Treasure Hunt" used a randomly selection (drawing a number out of a hat/box) to pick which box hid the jackpot.
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It might even have been a hatbox.
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I'll let you answer the TTD question by thinking about the HS secret square. It was selected by the producers and shown to the home audience in advance. It's not a random selection in either of these examples. Nor are the dollar amounts placed in the DoND cases a random selection.
The same holds true for the games on TPiR, such as the selection of the shell under which we find the ball, the correct digits on "Any Number", etc., etc.. They are all selected in advance and noted on production sheets that are distributed to those who need to know. As the announcer I could hear on the PL in my headphones the cue to the director, sfx person and others when a selection was right or wrong, just before the reveal.
S&P would be involved with monitoring the selections and the paperwork on which they are noted. Hope that helps.
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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What Randy said. He's actually there.
Moreover, if something is 'random', that does not have to mean it's computer-generated random. If the TTD producers really made their selection randomly, they could still have picked a card, or a number out of a hat, or any of a hundred different legitimate random means to select a number, and then programmed the computer accordingly.
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The same holds true for the games on TPiR, such as the selection of the shell under which we find the ball, the correct digits on "Any Number", etc., etc.. They are all selected in advance and noted on production sheets that are distributed to those who need to know.
Do they select in advance where the Shell Game ball starts out, or where it will end up after the host moves the shells around? (not that it really matters, unless Drew starts moving it to the same place every game)
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[quote name=\'HYHYBT\' post=\'178190\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 01:18 AM\']
Do they select in advance where the Shell Game ball starts out, or where it will end up after the host moves the shells around? (not that it really matters, unless Drew starts moving it to the same place every game)
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The location of the ball in Shell Game is picked by the Producer when the game is actually in place for a playing. The location is noted where the ball begins.
One difference in Shell Game versus, say Any Number, as Randy pointed out is that the ball in Shell Game can't really be moved or changed by anyone once the game begins, so there's not a major need for S&P to know where the ball is. A game such as Any Number, could theoretically be lit up however someone wanted it to.
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Here are my "random" thoughts FWIW:
Even if there's a 25% chance at any time that one of the 4 shells has the ball under it, placing chips next to a shell can change the complextion of the probability. For each shell lifted, either one of 2 things happen, no ball which means the game continues or ball meaning the player either wins or loses depending on the chip placement. Sometimes, I wonder if Bob Barker actually "felt" the ball inside the shells as he shuffled them.
As for PYL, there WAS a pattern early on in its run, The Big Bucks documentary clearly showed us how Larsen was able to sucessfully "read" the pattern in order to win $110K+. After his big win, the producers decided to make the board more random but even so there was still some patterns to the board.
I always wondered if there were 362,880 combinations(9!) on a 3x3 grid, why were there repetitions on the Tic Tac Dough board. Then I reailized, it was programmed that way since the monitors were hooked up to an Apple IIe. That's how I figured that when I programed a random number generator program in high school, it wasn't "truly random" when you first start the program each day.
As for the non-computer generated random selections, only those involved in the selections know exactly where everything is so S&P's there to see fit that everything's on the "level". There's really no cheating or rigging unless S&P makes notes of any odd behaviors going on in the process.
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[quote name=\'Craig Karlberg\' post=\'178193\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 04:32 AM\']
Even if there's a 25% chance at any time that one of the 4 shells has the ball under it, placing chips next to a shell can change the complextion of the probability. For each shell lifted, either one of 2 things happen, no ball which means the game continues or ball meaning the player either wins or loses depending on the chip placement. Sometimes, I wonder if Bob Barker actually "felt" the ball inside the shells as he shuffled them.
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Every time I saw the Shell Game, Bob narrowed it down to two shells this one you win, this one you don't; no matter how many chips the player started with; 1, 2, or 3.
So I thought it was obvious he knew where the ball was.
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[quote name=\'Chuck Sutton\' post=\'178195\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 08:54 AM\']
[quote name=\'Craig Karlberg\' post=\'178193\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 04:32 AM\']
Even if there's a 25% chance at any time that one of the 4 shells has the ball under it, placing chips next to a shell can change the complextion of the probability. For each shell lifted, either one of 2 things happen, no ball which means the game continues or ball meaning the player either wins or loses depending on the chip placement. Sometimes, I wonder if Bob Barker actually "felt" the ball inside the shells as he shuffled them.
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Every time I saw the Shell Game, Bob narrowed it down to two shells this one you win, this one you don't; no matter how many chips the player started with; 1, 2, or 3.
So I thought it was obvious he knew where the ball was.
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If you notice on the Shell Game, the "shells" are lined with some type of foam rubber material -- enough to muffle the ball noise hitting the sides of the shell when they are moved around, but the ball still can be felt hitting the sides by the host to ensure that they keep that shell in play to the end, if they so desire.
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[quote name=\'Craig Karlberg\' post=\'178193\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 03:32 AM\']
I always wondered if there were 362,880 combinations(9!) on a 3x3 grid, why were there repetitions on the Tic Tac Dough board. Then I reailized, it was programmed that way since the monitors were hooked up to an Apple IIe. That's how I figured that when I programed a random number generator program in high school, it wasn't "truly random" when you first start the program each day.
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When I first started playin around in BASIC on the ol' IBM PCjr, I remember the rnd command was to give a random decimal number between 0 and 1.. so in order to have it choose a random number between 1 and 10, you would take the CINT (integer rounded to the "ceiling") of the rnd*10, so if you were given 0.395033988 as the rnd, the cint(rnd*10) would yield your "random" number between 1 and 10 = 4 :)
The problem was, every time you ran the program, it would give you the same set of rnd's unless you stuck a "RANDOMIZE TIMER" before you started to ask it to spit out rnd's.. then it would synch up the randomization with some millisecond coding... Which yielded relatively random numbers, unless you ran your program and precisely the same millisecond more than once .. it wasn't true pure randomness, but it worked for making cheesy number and word guessing games :D
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[quote name=\'TimK2003\' post=\'178196\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 08:23 AM\']
If you notice on the Shell Game, the "shells" are lined with some type of foam rubber material -- enough to muffle the ball noise hitting the sides of the shell when they are moved around, but the ball still can be felt hitting the sides by the host to ensure that they keep that shell in play to the end, if they so desire.
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It is actually just quite simply black felt. I believe it is thin enough that the plastic of the Shell still helps to achieve the effect you are eluding to.
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[quote name=\'lobster\' post=\'178215\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 01:33 PM\']
[quote name=\'Craig Karlberg\' post=\'178193\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 03:32 AM\']
I always wondered if there were 362,880 combinations(9!) on a 3x3 grid, why were there repetitions on the Tic Tac Dough board. Then I reailized, it was programmed that way since the monitors were hooked up to an Apple IIe. That's how I figured that when I programed a random number generator program in high school, it wasn't "truly random" when you first start the program each day.
[/quote]
When I first started playin around in BASIC on the ol' IBM PCjr, I remember the rnd command was to give a random decimal number between 0 and 1.. so in order to have it choose a random number between 1 and 10, you would take the CINT (integer rounded to the "ceiling") of the rnd*10, so if you were given 0.395033988 as the rnd, the cint(rnd*10) would yield your "random" number between 1 and 10 = 4 :)
The problem was, every time you ran the program, it would give you the same set of rnd's unless you stuck a "RANDOMIZE TIMER" before you started to ask it to spit out rnd's.. then it would synch up the randomization with some millisecond coding... Which yielded relatively random numbers, unless you ran your program and precisely the same millisecond more than once .. it wasn't true pure randomness, but it worked for making cheesy number and word guessing games :D
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and to this point, and hopefully not taking this too far off topic, many people are still under the idea that slot machines of today are using a random number generator to determine the result of their "spin". You can't create a RNG to do that so the machines have programed into them a sequence of possible results that are always "spinning". Pushing the button stops that sequence.
I've wondered how these computer games of DOND for instance are actually placing the dollar amounts into the cases. Then I realize what a wast of my life it is wondering that, and I pick up a book.
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[quote name=\'narzo\' post=\'178249\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 06:27 PM\']
and to this point, and hopefully not taking this too far off topic, many people are still under the idea that slot machines of today are using a random number generator to determine the result of their "spin". You can't create a RNG to do that so the machines have programed into them a sequence of possible results that are always "spinning". Pushing the button stops that sequence.
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Incidentally I actually can answer that question, as for three years I designed touchscreen UI elements for a slot machine manufacturer here in Texas (the irony being that slot gambling is illegal here, these machines are on casino floors in Oklahoma, North Carolina, etc) -- you have to take into account that there is a formula based on what's called the volatility index, which figures in house-defined settings relevant to the paytable of the game as well as the desired "hit frequency". Basically the higher the v.i. the more spins it takes for a machine to reach its theoretical payback.
In our instance, there IS a finite list of outcomes (albeit a huge one) and a random number actually is generated based on that formula... and, say it has been determined that they player will be given a non-winning BAR-BAR-SOMETHINGELSE for example, an rng'ed number is used to decide which reel-stops (symbols) will settle on the payline for that one losing combination..
And on top of all of that :D , these machines are actually driven by a rapidly drawn single-player "bingo game" that's playing in the background, and the results of that bingo game "drives" what happens on the reels. The reels themselves only reflect what's really determined by the "bingo game", but the player either doesn't know or care about that, as long as they see them purrty sevens ..
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Those are class 2 machines, which I consider sleazy. According to The Wiz (http://\"http://www.wizardofodds.com/gambling/glossary.html\"), they are found primarily in Oklahoma and Indian casinos.
Class 3 machines, which you find in Vegas, Atlantic City, and other major gambling markets work differently.
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along this note -- :D -- whenever I buy a quick-pick lottery ticket , I often think about how if the cashier pauses to scratch their nose, or if I'm buying gum also and they ring that up first, how that 100% changes the combination of numbers I'm going to be given when they hit that quick-pick button, with all the random combinations flying by every nanosecond..
i remember reading about a guy about 10 years ago who says he was behind another guy in line at a gas station who ended up winning the tx lottery (I guess he was memorable?) and I remember him remarking in the paper about how that "could have been him if he had only gotten in line earlier" .. and the reporter helped dwell on that point further without researching the fact that that is virtually impossible the cashier would have still hit the button during the same precise winning moment had the men switched places.
you'll see people at slot machines get angry when they step away from a machine only to see someone else step up to that same machine and hit -- even though had the original player stayed at that machine they probably wouldn't have won.. it's all about nanoseconds, not "the next person who steps up will win the pre-determined jackpot pull" :D
/sorry for the non-game show rambling ...
//back on topic: what was the volatility index on TJW? :p
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'178288\' date=\'Feb 19 2008, 11:19 PM\']
Those are class 2 machines, which I consider sleazy. According to The Wiz (http://\"http://www.wizardofodds.com/gambling/glossary.html\"), they are found primarily in Oklahoma and Indian casinos.
Class 3 machines, which you find in Vegas, Atlantic City, and other major gambling markets work differently.
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You are exactly right.. class II machines, they are ..
But.. sleazy? It's all the same outcome, mate. Class II inner workings is just a silly loophole to get around slot laws. As far as the player is concerned, it's indistinguishable and the end results are the same, as the house has the ability to set their machines whether it's Class II or III. If you couldn't see the bingo display, you'd have no idea which one you were playing.
Alas, sleazy or not, I couldn't turn down the chance to work on 'em and see my work actually appear on the screens of slots on an actual casino floor -- even if that floor happened to be inside the Chickasaw Nation and not on the Strip at the Wynn.. :D .. quite a fun job indeed.. and a surprisingly incredible amount of competition and politics
/now the players, that's a different story..