The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: chris319 on January 19, 2008, 10:42:42 PM
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Apropos of our recent lively discussion about the Television Production Music Museum, here is a link to the Wikipedia article on music licensing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Licensing (http://\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Licensing\")
Now for a story about music licensing. Last July at the Game Show Congreff I produced a live performance of Match Game. Of course, no performance of Match Game would be complete without the wanky-wank guitar opening, theme and think cues. I blithely downloaded the Match Game music cues from a well-known web site and arranged them to play back from my laptop computer. Knowing what I know about music licensing I thought to myself, "I'm probably flying under the radar of BMI, ASCAP and the music rights police with my small, one-off, not-for-profit performance of Match Game. The worst that could happen is that an attorney from BMI would show up and bust me, and what are the odds of that happening?". "Murphy" heard this.
During the performance we selected contestants from the assembled audience of about 60. One of the first two contestants was a fellow who came up on stage, and when emcee Randy West interviewed him, he said he was a lawyer. I thought nothing of it. We played the game and he was ultimately defeated. After the performance I went up to him and asked what kind of lawyer he was and whether he was in private practice or worked for a company. "I'm an attorney for BMI" he replied. OMG!!!!! My heart stopped beating for a moment. My worst fear realized!!! BUSTED!!!
I explained to him that my worst fear was that HE would show up with me playing all of those Match Game cues. Well, he couldn't have been more gracious. He told me that what I was doing was perfectly OK. It turns out that I didn't have to worry about music rights so long as the venue had a license. "The Beverly Garland Hotel probably has a music license, so you're OK" he explained. WHEW! (And I don't mean Jay Wolpert's show).
Luckily there were no Fremantle attorneys in the audience.
The Wikipedia article does not go into compilation CDs or the exchange of music on line. As most of you know there was a big to-do about on-line music file swapping several years ago. I'm no expert, but one difference between game show themes and cues and an Elton John CD is that the latter is intended to be sold to the public at retail. The former is intended for use by television producers in their shows.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175564\' date=\'Jan 19 2008, 10:42 PM\']Apropos of our recent lively discussion about the Television Production Music Museum, here is a link to the Wikipedia article on music licensing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Licensing (http://\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Licensing\")[/quote]
<<rest of article snipped>> I'm not meaning to stir up a hornet's nest, but Wikipedia isn't what I would consider the ultimate source for information. It's good as a starting point to search for other information, but given that anyone can edit a Wikipedia article... In the education field, there are many discussions about if Wikipedia is considered a valid source to cite, and many educators will not accept this as a source. (Disclosure: My wife is a teacher.)
Now, if you wanted to link to BMI's licensing site (http://\"http://www.bmi.com/licensing/entry/C1289\") or the National Music Publishers' Association (http://\"http://www.nmpa.org/music101/index.asp?pageID=1\") to make your case, that may be different. :)
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Wikipedia isn't what I would consider the ultimate source for information
That doesn't invalidate everything ever published on Wikipedia. I read the article I linked to, and it comports with what I know about the subject of music licensing. If you care to dispute the Wikipedia article by pointing out errors or inaccuacies, be my guest. Tell you what -- compare the BMI article and the Wikipedia article and get back to me with any discrepancies you may find.
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I'm curious. From who or where did the questions for your game come from?
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175607\' date=\'Jan 20 2008, 05:07 PM\']
Wikipedia isn't what I would consider the ultimate source for information
That doesn't invalidate everything ever published on Wikipedia. I read the article I linked to, and it comports with what I know about the subject of music licensing. If you care to dispute the Wikipedia article by pointing out errors or inaccuacies, be my guest. Tell you what -- compare the BMI article and the Wikipedia article and get back to me with any discrepancies you may find.[/quote]Chris, all I was stating was that many people (myself included) do not consider Wikipedia an authoritative source. I was not arguing the validity of this particular article, as I didn't read it. I am not lawyer, much less a lawyer specializing in licensing. I was, ironically, trying to HELP YOU by citing other sources that others may find more authoritative. Guess I deserved what I got for delurking...
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My beef with wikipedia in general is that an authortative article that was there five minutes ago may be changed, not always for the better, at any time by anybody.
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'175654\' date=\'Jan 20 2008, 06:56 PM\'] My beef with wikipedia in general is that an authortative article that was there five minutes ago may be changed, not always for the better, at any time by anybody. [/quote]
There *are* good editors on Wiki, who really DO try to make it more than just page after page about how their girlfriend is the hottest "evur" or how their middle school is so much better than the rival one. The problem in trying to improve the signal-to-noise ratio is..well...the untamed mass of immature idiots. And in many cases the mature idiots.
From everything I've seen, the first biggest thing that Wiki could do to help itself is simple, but they'll *never* do it: Require registration for edits. Most of the vandalism and pure abject garbage comes from unregistered users posting only with their IP address. And AOHell isn't the most flagrant offender, not by a long shot. Schools - Middle and High Schools - are *easily* the IP ranges vandlizing Wiki the most.
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See, the topic of music licensing is so drab that it's hardly going to become a lightning rod for miscreants or uninformed fanb0is (you know how I feel about uninformed fanb0is). With regard to game shows, occasionally some ill-informed mythology will creep in, but the sites I've visited haven't been too bad and the contributors have been well-intentioned. Usually the writing is dreadful (can you say bonehead English?) and the fanb0is can name every emcee, substitute emcee, announcer, substitute announcer, model and substitute model, but have no clue as to the executive producer/producer/director/writers, without whom there wouldn't be a show. Sometimes I think some fanb0is believe game show questions are delivered by stork :-)
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175696\' date=\'Jan 20 2008, 08:24 PM\']
Sometimes I think some fanb0is believe game show questions are delivered by stork :-)
[/quote]
I always thought Matt Ottinger crapped them.
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I always thought Matt Ottinger crapped them.
There you go, being an instigator again :-P
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175702\' date=\'Jan 20 2008, 09:18 PM\']
I always thought Matt Ottinger crapped them.
There you go, being an instigator again :-P
[/quote]
Matt Ottinger could start a hockey fight and the ref would get the extra two for instigating.
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Holding a grudge against Matt now, are we?
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175712\' date=\'Jan 20 2008, 10:31 PM\']
Holding a grudge against Matt now, are we?
[/quote]
Matt Ottinger doesn't hold grudges. Grudges hold Matt Ottinger.
/got nothin'
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'175700\' date=\'Jan 20 2008, 11:48 PM\']
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175696\' date=\'Jan 20 2008, 08:24 PM\']
Sometimes I think some fanb0is believe game show questions are delivered by stork :-)
[/quote]
I always thought Matt Ottinger crapped them.
[/quote]
No, no, no. Everybody knows Matt Ottinger's sh*t doesn't stink. So he couldn't possibly be delivering the material on the post-strike Temptation episodes...
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[quote name=\'Clay Zambo\' post=\'175747\' date=\'Jan 21 2008, 11:17 AM\'] No, no, no. Everybody knows Matt Ottinger's sh*t doesn't stink. So he couldn't possibly be delivering the material on the post-strike Temptation episodes... [/quote]
What post-strike Temptation episodes?
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What's with all this pile-on-Matt stuff? Did he burn down your houses over the weekend?
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175770\' date=\'Jan 21 2008, 03:01 PM\']
What's with all this pile-on-Matt stuff? Did he burn down your houses over the weekend?
[/quote]
Matt doesn't have to burn down anyone's house. He uses his heat vision so the houses burn themselves down.
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[quote name=\'Clay Zambo\' post=\'175747\' date=\'Jan 21 2008, 12:17 PM\']
No, no, no. Everybody knows Matt Ottinger's sh*t doesn't stink. So he couldn't possibly be delivering the material on the post-strike Temptation episodes...
[/quote]
Matt's Sh*t > Lotsa Love
/that would make for quite the livejournal colorbar
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Matt doesn't have to burn down anyone's house. He uses his heat vision so the houses burn themselves down.
Oh, heat vision, huh? Myself I use mental telepathy. Just yesterday a house in the midwest immolated.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175564\' date=\'Jan 19 2008, 09:42 PM\']
It turns out that I didn't have to worry about music rights so long as the venue had a license. "The Beverly Garland Hotel probably has a music license, so you're OK" he explained.
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Howdy Chris :D -- Just a thought -- what if you were broadcasting your show over the radio, would the venue you're broadcasting from having a license still be relevant? I'd always thought it's what you DO with the music as opposed to WHERE you play it that was the cause of such concern for the music rights advocates. I would have figured your case would have been treated similarly to, say, mobile DJs at weddings etc who play copyrighted music without concern for violating music rights etc, no?
cheers
lobs
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Major TV and radio stations have ASCAP and BMI licenses. The station is conisdered the "venue". If, say, a producer of radio commercials uses ASCAP or BMI music in a commercial, the radio station's ASCAP or BMI license would cover it.
In the case of Shokus Radio, a purely on-line undertaking, his streaming provider takes care of all the music licensing details. Thus, Stuart can (and has) played the Concentration theme in its entirety without worries.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'175795\' date=\'Jan 21 2008, 06:01 PM\']
Major TV and radio stations have ASCAP and BMI licenses. The station is conisdered the "venue". If, say, a producer of radio commercials uses ASCAP or BMI music in a commercial, the radio station's ASCAP or BMI license would cover it.
In the case of Shokus Radio, a purely on-line undertaking, his streaming provider takes care of all the music licensing details. Thus, Stuart can (and has) played the Concentration theme in its entirety without worries.
[/quote]
Working for someone who also pays royalties as a streaming provider, I can't believe he doesn't have worries. We have to self-report to each label and pay them accordingly.
--Mike
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Working for someone who also pays royalties as a streaming provider, I can't believe he doesn't have worries. We have to self-report to each label and pay them accordingly.
Are you saying your employer is a streaming provider who has to report every cue on behalf of your end users? Or do your end users have to report every cue? Stuart is an end user. I posed this question on this board quite a while back and was told that the streaming provider takes care of all music rights payments, so all the end user has to do is pay one amount to the provider (I think we were talking about Shoutcast?).
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[quote name=\'mmb5\' post=\'175822\' date=\'Jan 21 2008, 09:32 PM\']
Working for someone who also pays royalties as a streaming provider, I can't believe he doesn't have worries. We have to self-report to each label and pay them accordingly.
[/quote]
so out of curiosity, what's the going rate per play for, say, the Jeopardy! think music, for example?
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Here's my question. I know the main theme has been released on cd, but what about other cues and the like. Also, like a home made version of TPIR that uses cues from the show, that were never intended to be used, let alone even heard in the clear by the general public. How does one get away or not get away from using these in live productions like the Match Game one, or are all those cues as well licenced under BMI or ASCAP say for like college shows and stuff.
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Chris' Q: Although we are not the true end-user, we are instructed by our end users what to play, so we know exactly what was played. How would Shoutcast know what Stu played (if that's who he uses), unless they are streaming it themselves? And yes, we keep track of everything. The standard rate for an internet broadcaster is approximately 0.11 cents per listener per song. If one person listened to it, you could get about 900 songs for a dollar, or if 900 people listened to one song, it would cost you a dollar.
Argo's Q: It would depend on who the music is published with, what deals the publisher has negotiated with that producer, etc. I'm contractually bound not to reveal the rates my company pays, but it less than a cent per listener per song. However, on something like Jeopardy, where the number of viewers is in the millions, you can see why Merv wanted to be the theme writer.
On a side note, did you know the theme to Star Trek has lyrics. Even though you've never heard them, by Gene Roddenberry adding them after the music was written, he became a co-writer of the song, and eligible for royalties.
Excellent article here on how it all works: http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties.htm (http://\"http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties.htm\")
--Mike
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In the case of podcasts, if the producer of the podcast wants to use BMI/ASCAP/SESAC music, s/he has to pay a license fee and log every use of music on their program. One of my favorite podcasts is Brian Ibbott's "Coverville," which plays cover versions of songs. On one of the shows, he played a certain cover that included quotes from about 15 other songs. Although the quotes were short enough to be considered fair use parody, after playing the song Ibbott joked about having to write down every song on his log sheets for the licensors.
And do check out the show at www.coverville.com. You may not like every song Ibbott plays, but it's fun hearing different interpretations of familiar songs. (I personally am surprised how many acoustic chick singer versions of "Dream On" there are besides Kelly Sweet.)
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Mark -
I may be producing a podcast containing ASCAP or BMI music. Where can I find out more about podcast licensing?
Or not.
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I heard that Roddenberry screwed Sandy Courage out of the Star Trek theme royalities by getting Courage to sign them over to him. The story goes that Roddenberry gave Courage a contract to sign. Courage signed it without first looking it over, thinking it was the standard boilerplate agreement. Later, Courage found out otherwise. This story was related by Wilbur Hatch, head of the Desilu music department.
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Mark -
Thanks for the link.
That just cuts it! If I do a podcast there will be not one note of ASCAP or BMI music in it. And the subject of my contemplated podcast will be the very composer of the music in use! If I have to pay $300 per year and go through all this recordkeeping malarkey, it's just plain not worth it. $300 per year when I'm making zero, zip, zilch, nada off the project which is being produced at my own expense with no prospects of ever recovering my out-of-pocket costs.
Hell, it would be easier to get Frank Wayne to rise from the grave and do an oral history with him. And he'd have lots to talk about!