The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Jeremy Nelson on January 04, 2008, 01:27:43 AM
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Hopefully, I'm not alone on this one, but I've always had this little thought in the back of my head that B&E tilted the scales in some of their games well into the 1980s. For example, The Joker's Wild was a game of chance to me, until I saw Hal Shear "summon the power of his lucky suit", and then get a softball question for the win. After that moment, it got me to thinking- what if Thom McKee, along with other long standing champs on TTD, just happened to get one of their better categories shuffled into the winning box?
To me, it was a miracle that B&E were able to get a game of chance on TV after the scandals. I'm still wondering however, if they ever learned to play by the rules.
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In a word, no. The risk of jail time for the perpetrators and station licence revocation for the facilitators would be too great.
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Not to mention that by then, all game shows were (and continue to be to this day) militantly policed by the networks or the syndication companies. It's not uncommon for people associated with the show -- producers, stars, celebs, etc. -- to sign affidavits guaranteeing the genuineness of the game.
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[quote name=\'rollercoaster87\' post=\'173777\' date=\'Jan 3 2008, 10:27 PM\']Hopefully, I'm not alone on this one, but I've always had this little thought in the back of my head that B&E tilted the scales in some of their games well into the 1980s. For example, The Joker's Wild was a game of chance to me, until I saw Hal Shear "summon the power of his lucky suit", and then get a softball question for the win. [/quote] Every question on that version of Joker's Wild was a softball. That was the point. Anyone who cried shenanigans would see how innocuous the questions were, and that'd be that. How could you possibly rig a show that asked contestants to fill in the blank to Jan and Dean's hit: "Little Old Lady From (blank)".
After that moment, it got me to thinking- what if Thom McKee, along with other long standing champs on TTD, just happened to get one of their better categories shuffled into the winning box?
Or, for the contestants who won big ass streaks, EVERY category was their better category. (Or in the case of Kit, he would pounce on the Double or Bonus categories, and not even let the O player have a turn.)
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[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'173780\' date=\'Jan 4 2008, 02:59 AM\']
Every question on that version of Joker's Wild was a softball.
How could you possibly rig a show that asked contestants to fill in the blank to Jan and Dean's hit: "Little Old Lady From (blank)".[/quote]
You could have three jokers pop up on the reels when Hal and his lucky suit need them most... when that's the only thing that can give him a chance to not lose the game. :)
I'd like to believe that it wasn't rigged.
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I'm just saying that when the whole Hal Shear thing happened, SOMEBODY in Standards and Practices had to have turned their head a couple of times, wondering "Did that just happen?"
I think that was my whole problem with TJW: the questions had no varying degree of difficulty. A $50 question was just as easy as a $200 question. I'm not saying that the three joker question should have been on the level of a million dollar question on Millionaire, but it should have tested his knowledge in the subject past what he learned in fifth grade.
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This is something I have always been a little curious about, though. TJW and TTD used what were generally new technologies (for game shows, at least). I admit I don't know much of the inner-workings of the wheels or the computer behind the TTD board, but it was definitely more complex than just making sure the cards are in the right slots or that contestants never see the material before the show. Were the methods in place at the time to make sure everything was technologically on the up-and-up?
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[quote name=\'rollercoaster87\' post=\'173808\' date=\'Jan 4 2008, 12:08 PM\']
I'm not saying that the three joker question should have been on the level of a million dollar question on Millionaire, but it should have tested his knowledge in the subject past what he learned in fifth grade.
[/quote]
Definitely. I mean, who'd want to watch a Q&A game show with fifth grade subject material?
:P
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[quote name=\'nWo_Whammy\' post=\'173818\' date=\'Jan 4 2008, 12:06 PM\']
I admit I don't know much of the inner-workings of the wheels or the computer behind the TTD board[/quote]
Wheels: modified slide projectors. No plausible way to rig on the fly without getting caught, because it would have to be a hardware hack.
Board: Nine ganged-together Apple II computers, probably driven by a tenth. Certainly more hackable, but it would have taken a pretty elaborate scam to do it.
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'173828\' date=\'Jan 4 2008, 03:36 PM\'] Board: Nine ganged-together Apple II computers, probably driven by a tenth. Certainly more hackable, but it would have taken a pretty elaborate scam to do it. [/quote]
TTD wasn't hacked, but it was... exploitable.
If you pay attention to the category shuffle, you'll notice that the selections weren't all that random (at least, they weren't during the Jim Caldwell season when I first noticed this, because it was more obvious with all of those red boxes). In fact, there was a pretty set-in-stone order of movement, not unlike Press Your Luck boards. My pre-teen BASIC-using brain at the time said, "They're using the same seed for their randomize every time!"
If you were to pay attention to this as a contestant, you might have had a good idea what was coming down the pike and more carefully selected some of your early boxes, so that your weaker categories were off the board in later turns.
Now this isn't at all relevant to rigging, because there would be no collusion necessary to do something like this. I just thought it was really interesting all those years ago.
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One thing about "Tic Tac Dough" is the inherent advantage for the champion because he goes first. That could only help build a long winning streak.
"Joker's Wild" didn't have champions that lasted as long--if they were to rig it, presumably it would be to help get such a streak going, not just allow for one lucky jacket fluke.
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I have to admit that in my teens, when these shows were airing for the first time, I knew enough about TV history to know that Barry & Enright had gotten into trouble for rigging shows in the past, and now here were two shows (especially Joker's Wild) that just looked eminently riggable. I didn't know the specifics about Standards and Practices, nor how the slide machine actually operated. It just seemed to my young eyes that it would have been pretty easy to do, so whenever any odds-bucking event happened, I couldn't help but wonder.
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^ I'm 35 years old, and I still wonder about it. But in thinking about it, when those three jokers popped up on the wheels, I'm sure S&P was all over it. I'd be surprised if there hadn't been a stopdown while somebody checked the projectors. I sure as hell would have.
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[quote name=\'rollercoaster87\' post=\'173777\' date=\'Jan 4 2008, 02:27 AM\']
What if Thom McKee, along with other long standing champs on TTD, just happened to get one of their better categories shuffled into the winning box?
To me, it was a miracle that B&E were able to get a game of chance on TV after the scandals. I'm still wondering however, if they ever learned to play by the rules.
[/quote]
At the 2006 GSC, I asked Thom about his long TTD run, and whether or not he faced any particular scrutiny because of the scandals over 20 years earlier. He admitted that he knew very little about game show history, and in particular when he started on the show he was not even aware of the quiz show scandals that brought Barry and Enright to their proverbial knees. He did, however, get an abrupt introduction to them after one printed interview where he told the reporter something to this effect: "I've been on so long that they're probably trying to figure out how to get rid of me!" Apparently Thom got a very stern admonition... don't ever say things like that... from Mr. Enright after the latter saw Thom's quote in print!
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Not having an episode at hand, I can't confirm it, but I recall from watching early TTD on GSN way back in the 20th century that the board pattern (at that time) wasn't random at all. Each category visited each box, in order, once. (That is, the pattern was something like 1-2-4-3-8-7-6-9-5-1 ...) Of course, while a savvy enough player could notice that and do a bit better, it's not rigging.
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Enough people of my generation and older still remembered and wondered. I recall one person was sure TJW was fixed because, "the mc said the only way the contestant could win was with three jokers, and he got it. It looked like the mc pushed a button on the side of his desk." I would think that after a couple of the local LA shows Jack hosted went network and he wasn't allowed to follow along, he would have been totally foolish to attempt any more stunts like that.
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[quote name=\'rollercoaster87\' post=\'173808\' date=\'Jan 4 2008, 11:08 AM\']
I think that was my whole problem with TJW: the questions had no varying degree of difficulty. A $50 question was just as easy as a $200 question. I'm not saying that the three joker question should have been on the level of a million dollar question on Millionaire, but it should have tested his knowledge in the subject past what he learned in fifth grade.
[/quote]
I swear I remember hearing or reading somewhere (perhaps it was second-hand speculation) that the questions' lack of difficulty was a means of deflecting rigging allegations. After all, nobody's going to accuse you of spoon-feeding the answers to the contestants when they're at a level where 75% of the adult public could get them right.
That said, in retrospect (having originally watched these shows as a kid,) the lack of challenge really diminishes my enjoyment of the shows now. And it seems it absolutely killed Bullseye right off the bat.
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One thing about "Tic Tac Dough" is the inherent advantage for the champion because he goes first. That could only help build a long winning streak.
"Joker's Wild" didn't have champions that lasted as long--if they were to rig it, presumably it would be to help get such a streak going, not just allow for one lucky jacket fluke.
It was sometime during the CBS run of the show that they changed from having the champion go first to have him/her go second. I think it was by early 1974. I remember watching the show as a youngster and wondered why the champ was sitting in a different spot all of a sudden.
I think they might have done that to ensure that they didn't have to bring anybody back. What that means it this: in the early days, if the champ got 3 jokers and answered correctly, they won and the challenger didn't even get a spin. They'd have the challenger back "some other time". By changing the champion's seating position, if the challenger got the 3 jokers they'd say goodbye to the champ anyway because they already won some prizes.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'173911\' date=\'Jan 5 2008, 08:47 AM\']
By changing the champion's seating position, if the challenger got the 3 jokers they'd say goodbye to the champ anyway because they already won some prizes.
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Not to mention, in that game, going second is a pretty big advantage, because you know what your opponent did on their turn (thereby allowing you to go off the board if you spin a triple in a category you might not like, if your opponent only made $100 on their turn, say) in addition to the Last Licks situation, which is HUGE when Fast Forward Whatever is up there.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'173911\' date=\'Jan 5 2008, 10:47 AM\']It was sometime during the CBS run of the show that they changed from having the champion go first to have him/her go second. I think it was by early 1974. I remember watching the show as a youngster and wondered why the champ was sitting in a different spot all of a sudden.[/quote]
That's funny, because I had the opposite experience. After years of watching it in the more familiar form, I saw an older ep and was surprised to see the champion going first.
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I've seen the TJW mechanism up close at that hellhole, the former Chris Craft Videotape Center. In all likelihood it was built at CBS and each projector had a spinning cylinder with huge notches cut out on one side. A solenoid engaged one of the notches, causing the cylinder to stop. There was no intelligence whereby Jack could push a button and cause a specific combination of categories to appear.
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I'm pretty sure the fact that Jack Barry was involved would bring on extra scrutiny to ensure
that TJW, TTD and every other B&E show were on the level. Jack Barry was forgiven but not
forgotten for his association with "Twenty-One."
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Hell-hole, eh, Chris? It certainly was small and cramped, as far as the studio and set went. On my one visit during a TJW taping, Wink stopped in to cut a quick promo. Did they do the Martindale TTD run there, too?
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[quote name=\'The Ol' Guy\' post=\'174013\' date=\'Jan 6 2008, 03:12 PM\']
Did they do the Martindale TTD run there, too?
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From what I remember reading on Steven Bentley's page, both shows taped in the same studio.
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'173930\' date=\'Jan 5 2008, 02:41 PM\']
Not to mention, in that game, going second is a pretty big advantage, because you know what your opponent did on their turn (thereby allowing you to go off the board if you spin a triple in a category you might not like, if your opponent only made $100 on their turn, say) in addition to the Last Licks situation, which is HUGE when Fast Forward Whatever is up there.
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That's true, and I hadn't thought of it when I posted before. But. . . do you remember players really taking advantage of the Fast Forward category? I was always surprised players DIDN'T make more use of it. It would have totally changed the game if they had.
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That's true, and I hadn't thought of it when I posted before. But. . . do you remember players really taking advantage of the Fast Forward category? I was always surprised players DIDN'T make more use of it. It would have totally changed the game if they had.
There are at least two occasions where a contestant spun a $50 Fast Forward on their last turn and answered 10 questions in a row to win the game. One occured during the '77-78 season, and the other (which I have on tape) was in 82-83. There were a few other occasions where a contestant answered several in a row only to get one wrong before they caught up; and there were also a few other occasions where somebody had a Joker and didn't make proper use of it, only to lose.
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Just wanted to add: The most annoying variation on this happened at least once and probably more. The champion trailed by at least $250, and could have won with a Fast Forward category, but Jack declared the game over as soon as something came up that wasn't a joker.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'174027\' date=\'Jan 6 2008, 04:26 PM\']
There are at least two occasions where a contestant spun a $50 Fast Forward on their last turn and answered 10 questions in a row to win the game. One occured during the '77-78 season[/quote]
That one was Byron Wilson, who was playing his fifth game so he won a car as a result of making it through those ten questions. Byron was one of the top winners of that season but was ineligible for the $100,000 Tournament of Champions in late 1978 because by that time he had become a member of the show's writing team.
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[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'174027\' date=\'Jan 6 2008, 04:26 PM\']
There are at least two occasions where a contestant spun a $50 Fast Forward on their last turn and answered 10 questions in a row to win the game. One occured during the '77-78 season, and the other (which I have on tape) was in 82-83. There were a few other occasions where a contestant answered several in a row only to get one wrong before they caught up; and there were also a few other occasions where somebody had a Joker and didn't make proper use of it, only to lose.
[/quote]
I remember watching one ep of the 78-79 season on GSN when the FF category was in play for the game, the champion was down $500 to $100, and Jack told him that the only way he could win was to spin three jokers. He did spin, only one joker appeared, and Jack said "Nope, it's all over, we have a new champion!" without even giving the contestant the option of using FF to try to catch up. I was "WTFing" at that, and I don't remember seeing him brought back as a result. I'd rather think this was an oversight on B&E's part, however.
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[quote name=\'Johnissoevil\' post=\'174092\' date=\'Jan 7 2008, 04:09 AM\']
I remember watching one ep of the 78-79 season on GSN when the FF category was in play for the game, the champion was down $500 to $100, and Jack told him that the only way he could win was to spin three jokers. He did spin, only one joker appeared, and Jack said "Nope, it's all over, we have a new champion!" without even giving the contestant the option of using FF to try to catch up.
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Is it just me, or was Jack often too quick to end the game when a contestant was in a potential losing position, like the example above?
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It seems to me that NOBODY behind the scenes knew how to use the FF category. The Fast Forward category, which was a pretty good idea, should have been scrapped right away if nobody could remember the rules on how to use it.
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While we're on the subject of categories and going off the board, does anyone know if there was a list of categories visible to the contestants at all times? There must have been one, but I've never seen any reference to it.
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[quote name=\'Mike Tennant\' post=\'174107\' date=\'Jan 7 2008, 10:42 AM\']
While we're on the subject of categories and going off the board, does anyone know if there was a list of categories visible to the contestants at all times? There must have been one, but I've never seen any reference to it.
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"Excuse me, Jack, could you get out of the way and open those panels so I can check my options..." ;)
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[quote name=\'The Ol' Guy\' post=\'174013\' date=\'Jan 6 2008, 12:12 PM\']
Hell-hole, eh, Chris? It certainly was small and cramped, as far as the studio and set went. On my one visit during a TJW taping, Wink stopped in to cut a quick promo. Did they do the Martindale TTD run there, too?
[/quote]
If you think the Chris Craft studio was cramped, try doing a show in NBC 6A or 6B. Those studios are only about 45 feet wide. The big studio was not quite as big as the studios at the networks, but it was close.
Chris Craft never put any money back into that facility. The equipment and building were old and run-down. There's a reason Barry and Enright shot there -- it was cheap.
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[quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'174053\' date=\'Jan 6 2008, 06:08 PM\']
Byron was one of the top winners of that season but was ineligible for the $100,000 Tournament of Champions in late 1978 because by that time he had become a member of the show's writing team.
[/quote]
Is there anyone Jack Barry didn't offer a job to? ISTR him offering Frank Dillon a position on-air following one of the tournaments.
Of course, there was also Scott Wyant on Bullseye.
/Would love to go from game show contestant to staffer.
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[quote name=\'rollercoaster87\' post=\'173777\' date=\'Jan 4 2008, 02:27 AM\']
To me, it was a miracle that B&E were able to get a game of chance on TV after the scandals. I'm still wondering however, if they ever learned to play by the rules.
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I once passed a question along these lines that someone wrote to Jim Peck, who indignantly replied that *never* would have happened as long as Ron Greenburg was producing.
Again, with S&P watching everything, the risk of losing the empire a second time hanging over their heads, and there being no need to do anything to "adjust" the games (because they worked fine without it, unlike Twenty-One, I have to say nothing happened.