The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Ian Wallis on June 26, 2007, 05:53:33 PM
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I know this has been brought up once or twice before, but I'd like to get a current take on it.
In transferring a couple of episodes from a VHS tape I got in a trade several years ago, my machine is not letting my copy them because it thinks they're copyrighted. Why it's doing this I don't know, because these are episodes recorded off TV - they're not from copyrighted tapes.
I've transferred about 900 episodes from my collection so far and haven't really run into this problem. There were a couple of times where it almost occurred, but when I cued the tape a couple of seconds earlier before dubbing to DVD, it worked. Whatever I do to these particular episodes I just can't get them to record.
I thought if I daisy-chained two VCRs together and play it through the first one it might work, but it didn't.
Would it work if I were to dub said episodes to another tape and try again - or would I just be wasting my time?
If anyone else has had this problem recently please let me know if there's a work-around; or point me to a link with some more info. I tried doing a search for the other threads on the topic but I'm probably using the wrong keywords because I couldn't turn them up.
I'd also like to know why this occurs!
Thanks in advance for any help :)
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I've had problems with this before and I was told that it has something to do with the age of the tape. I don't know how true it is, as I've transferred tapes from 1996 just fine but had problems with tapes from 2000. One thing I have noticed in transferring to DVD, at least with my machines, is that if the picture is jumpy or fuzzy, it seems to happen more often.
As for how to fix it, I have tried dubbing the original to a blank and used the blank to copy to DVD and it has worked. Another device that was suggested to me, but hadn't worked(for me anyway) are Digital Video Stabilizers (http://\"http://www.checkhere22.com/stabilizer_tech.html\")
Not sure why the latter didn't work but I don't care as much as the former did work ok for me. Of course I don't claim to be an expert, these are just obs from my experiences, YMMV.
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If the quality of the tape picture is poor, the DVD recorder may trigger Macrovision protection and stop recording. This can happen even if it is something you recorded yourself that does not have it. There are ways to look online to see if your DVD recorder is able to turn off Macrovision protection, not really legally, so dubber beware. That being said, sometimes when I try to dub the same thing again on a new disc, it's like nothing happened. Each pass varies.
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[quote name=\'Queen of Nerdocrombesia\' post=\'156109\' date=\'Jun 26 2007, 06:21 PM\']
If the quality of the tape picture is poor, the DVD recorder may trigger Macrovision protection and stop recording. This can happen even if it is something you recorded yourself that does not have it. There are ways to look online to see if your DVD recorder is able to turn off Macrovision protection, not really legally, so dubber beware. That being said, sometimes when I try to dub the same thing again on a new disc, it's like nothing happened. Each pass varies.[/quote]
This is the correct answer, worded very well, which is why I quoted it. If I was a less scrupulous moderator, I'd delete Queenie's post and paste her response to make it look like it came from me, that's how good it is. It's not the age of the tape, it's the quality of the tape. (Age is naturally a factor.)
Another big thing is whether your VHS tape was recorded at the slower SLP speed as opposed to the faster, better-quality SP mode. Transferring your tape to another newer tape, ideally in the SP mode, is probably the simplest and cheapest solution, though the transfer costs you that much more in picture quality (a different creature than signal quality).
The signal stabilizer route is probably a better way to go than hacking your DVD recorder, which I really don't recommend unless you know what you're doing. Your problem there is that the good ones are pricey, and you won't know whether a cheaper one will do the trick until you try.
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Thanks for the info, guys. I've run into this problem too. I've dubbed 120 of my 170 game shows tapes. (I have another approximately 150 non game show tapes to do after this.) It sounds like the best bet is to dub the tape to another tape in SP mode and then try it. (Unfortunately, this will make the picture quality even worse.)
What I've done so far is to circle the name of the show on the label, set the tape aside, and keep going. I was going to post something like this when I was done, but Ian posted it for me.
For what it's worth, I started this process at the beginning of February. I've dubbed 120 tapes in just under five months.
Justin
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I purchased a Pinnacle 700 to injest my VCR into my computer to dump shows into my harddrive, or onto my DVD burner..... this may be a way to get around the macrovision issue, no?
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[quote name=\'tvwxman\' post=\'156137\' date=\'Jun 26 2007, 09:02 PM\']
I purchased a Pinnacle 700 to injest my VCR into my computer to dump shows into my harddrive, or onto my DVD burner..... this may be a way to get around the macrovision issue, no?
[/quote]
The key word is "may." Some of those analog-to-digital converters recognize the Macrovision signal themselves and, like the DVD recorders, will shut down in response. Others ignore it entirely, and still others can be set to ignore it via an undocumented switch or button sequence. The Canopus ADVC-100 that I use is in the third category; I'm not sure where the Pinnacle falls.
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I wonder if there is a way to "broadcast" a signal from one VCR in your home to a DVD burner? I have an XM radio with a transmitter that allows me to hear the signal on any radio in the house and record it on 88.1 FM if desired.
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'156143\' date=\'Jun 26 2007, 09:40 PM\']
I wonder if there is a way to "broadcast" a signal from one VCR in your home to a DVD burner? I have an XM radio with a transmitter that allows me to hear the signal on any radio in the house and record it on 88.1 FM if desired.
[/quote]
This (http://\"http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-VS-6428-4-channel-Wireless-Sender/dp/B00076QD26\") is more or less a video equivalent of the FM transmitter. Unfortunately, the resulting video quality (from this as well as from equivalent products from other companies) usually leaves a lot to be desired, so if the goal is to archive video, it's probably not the best bet.
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While it isn't a GS tape perse, but I wanted to dump my Johnny Carson: The Favorite Moments to DVD (4 VHS tapes to 2 DVDs) not only to free up room but to get it onto a longer-lasting media.
Macrovision did me in. I'm not even sure if the recent DVD collections are the same material as the tapes.
Side note: I don't know how folks can keep every tape in their collection. When I started transferring my stuff, I've been very brutal keeping...maybe 10-20%. I don't have the room (or $$) to buy/store 100s of DVDs.
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[quote name=\'JayDLewis\' post=\'156148\' date=\'Jun 26 2007, 09:21 PM\']
Side note: I don't know how folks can keep every tape in their collection. When I started transferring my stuff, I've been very brutal keeping...maybe 10-20%. I don't have the room (or $$) to buy/store 100s of DVDs. [/quote]
I can't speak for Canadian rates, but in the States you can purchase a spindle of 100 DVDs for, depending on the brand (or manufacturer in some cases), between USD$30-$40. As for storage, I don't know about other people, but I'm not so attached to my collection that I'm hyper-protective about storage, so I've been putting my DVDs in those 200/208-disc storage binders you can purchase at nearly any retailed. I've got a few special things I've got in hard cases, etc., but for most stuff I have no problems storing it in the aforementioned binders.
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[quote name=\'JayDLewis\' post=\'156148\' date=\'Jun 26 2007, 09:21 PM\']
While it isn't a GS tape perse, but I wanted to dump my Johnny Carson: The Favorite Moments to DVD (4 VHS tapes to 2 DVDs) not only to free up room but to get it onto a longer-lasting media.
[/quote]
Recordable DVDs may not be that long lasting. In fact, you may be better off holding on to your tapes until something better comes along. There is a phenomenon known as "disc fade," in which the organic dyes used in store-bought blank discs gradually deteriorate over time. (Commercially recorded discs don't have this problem, as they don't use dyes - the discs are physically "pressed" like an LP.) Certain manufacturers' discs are less prone to disc fade. I use Taiyo Yuden DVD-R's for anything new that I record, but I'm really hesitant to start dubbing over my 300+ tapes to optical discs...
For more info, check out the AVS Forum (http://\"http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=521692&page=1&pp=30\").
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The trouble is, you won't really know whether the "something better" really is better or not until it's been around as long as DVD's have been now. Not long ago at all they were claiming that burned CD's would be good for something like 100 years...
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[quote name=\'TheLastResort\' post=\'156154\' date=\'Jun 26 2007, 11:43 PM\']
For more info, check out the AVS Forum (http://\"http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=521692&page=1&pp=30\").[/quote]
The problem with using a message board like that to prove (or disprove) anything should be fairly obvious to anybody who's spent time on a message board. What you have are dozens of opinions, and while some are more informed than others, every single one of them is posted with that individual's absolute conviction of his own beliefs, whether informed or not. (Imagine somebody coming here and 'learning' something about game shows that was absolutely true because bandit-bobby said so.)
A few too many of those stories sounded like people who had a problem, and rather than considering the possibility of their own mistakes (cheap media, poor storage, bad handling, etc) immediately advanced to blaming the entire format. I'm not about to make Chicken Little jokes, because I truly don't know what the long-term answer is. But when you go to this site that says "Disc Fade is REAL," keep in mind that was originally written by someone who had a personal bad experience, and the seven pages (over the course of more than two years) that follows is a lively debate about just how 'real' the problem actually is.
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[quote name=\'JayDLewis\' post=\'156148\' date=\'Jun 26 2007, 10:21 PM\']
Side note: I don't know how folks can keep every tape in their collection. When I started transferring my stuff, I've been very brutal keeping...maybe 10-20%. I don't have the room (or $$) to buy/store 100s of DVDs.
[/quote]
This is exactly what I've been facing, albeit for a different reason...a lot of the stuff I have is from when I didn't have GSN and would trade with folks for tapes of "just record GSN for me please kthx." Match Game and Card Sharks, mostly.
So now that I've really had my fill on those, simply because they've been on GSN for a period of years now, I am really hesitant to spend all that time dubbing those episodes over. The time has passed where I sit and will watch a tape of Match Game.
And I'm hesitant also due to the reasons mentioned earlier - do we really know that this consumer-grade DVD media, even the premium stuff, won't just up and die in 10 years? I haven't been letting go of the tapes I've dubbed just for that reason.
My tapes of old GSN stuff that isn't currently on, like some of the B&E from the Dark Period, definitely get moved to DVD because I have doubts we'll ever see those on GSN again.
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[quote name=\'mitchgroff\' post=\'156180\' date=\'Jun 27 2007, 12:56 PM\']
And I'm hesitant also due to the reasons mentioned earlier - do we really know that this consumer-grade DVD media, even the premium stuff, won't just up and die in 10 years? I haven't been letting go of the tapes I've dubbed just for that reason.
[/quote]
I would suggest that it's far FAR more likely that those DVDs will be alive in 10 years than your videotape media will.
/doesn't buy into the "disc fade" thing either
//and even if I did, we'll have all moved to some other storage medium by then anyhow
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Space isn't really an issue with me. I've got a spare room where I can store tapes, so if anybody has tapes they don't need after burning to DVD, just send them my way. I'll keep them and if your DVD gets scratched or a year from now turns out to be from a bad batch, I'll have the tape.
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'156188\' date=\'Jun 27 2007, 05:26 PM\']
I'll keep them and if your DVD gets scratched or a year from now turns out to be from a bad batch, I'll have the tape.
[/quote]
...which I'll then re-sell to you at a premium price.
Seriously, you're going to turn your rec room into a orphanage for tapes?
Getting back on topic, the unknown future of DVD lifespans is exactly (or, to quote Chris Lemon, prezactly. I dunno what that means either) why I won't dump old VHS tapes. I just dubbed my beta save tapes at work to DVD, and I'm nowhere near convinced with them that the DVD's will keep without a scratch. So the save tapes stay for now (though editing at home just became a viable option with the DVD's).
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No, no exchange of money involved, if you need to borrow your tape, feel free. I already have about a thousand or so that I got from a video store that was getting out of the VHS business and still have a good amount of space available. If you go to rummage sales, you can find VHS racks pretty cheap--for now.
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'156173\' date=\'Jun 27 2007, 01:55 PM\']
[quote name=\'TheLastResort\' post=\'156154\' date=\'Jun 26 2007, 11:43 PM\']
For more info, check out the AVS Forum (http://\"http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=521692&page=1&pp=30\").[/quote]
The problem with using a message board like that to prove (or disprove) anything should be fairly obvious to anybody who's spent time on a message board... [/quote]
Trust me, I know that. I take anything I read on a message board with a grain of salt (no offense, but this one included). And I'm not trying to "prove" or "disprove" anything. I'm simply bringing up a frequently discussed issue that is worth noting for anybody who's contemplating throwing out their precious VHS tapes in favor of DVD copies. Other sources are out there if anyone cares to research it further.
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For those that have addressed my "cost" issue here's my thing.
The cost of the media is fairly negligible. I can get 100 for $30 (or so) of a brand-name disc (Sony has given me zero problems so far).
The cost/space issue comes in the manner which I choose to store my DVDs. I won't use paper/folder systems because I feel the risk of scratching is WAY too high. I'm using cakeboxes that hold either 1 (or 2) DVDs. My cost on those is anywhere from $0.60 to $0.25. (I can get them for $0.27 (double/single) but I have to buy a minimum of 100 each.)
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[quote name=\'TheLastResort\' post=\'156192\' date=\'Jun 27 2007, 07:19 PM\']Trust me, I know that. I take anything I read on a message board with a grain of salt (no offense, but this one included). [/quote]
No offense taken, at all. If anything, my whole point is that a healthy skepticism is a good thing.
Toward that end, consider the thread once again (http://\"http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=521692&page=1&pp=30\"). The original poster, the one who wrote "Disc Fade is REAL" was referring to discs he burned on a player he purchased in September, 2003. He wrote his dire warning in March, 2005. His discs were failing eighteen months after they were recorded, and he was blaming it on "disc fade," the term that naysayers are using to suggest the entire format is essentially worthless. I would suggest that if the general population was having widespread problems with discs a year and a half after they were burned, you'd be reading about it in a lot more places than on-line forums.
Most independent testing organizations are using 20 to 30 years as a lowball estimate of the longevity of burnable DVDs that are properly cared for. But the simple truth is we don't know because they haven't been around that long. Still, common sense says that if something is truly important to you, you save the originals even after you've made copies. If anyone has made the decision that physical space is a serious consideration, I suggest you take Jimmy up on his warehousing offer.
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[quote name=\'JayDLewis\' post=\'156197\' date=\'Jun 27 2007, 06:23 PM\']
My cost on those is anywhere from $0.60 to $0.25. (I can get them for $0.27 (double/single) but I have to buy a minimum of 100 each.)
[/quote]
Funny you should mention that, as I just fount this (http://\"http://www.yesbuy.net/media-slim-double-dvd-case-cd-box-black-7mm-100.html\").
(Yeah, still 100, but for $20? C'mon.)
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This is why I think dubbing an entire collection to DVD is a rotten idea, at least now. When you start dubbing lower quality programs, you either run into Macrovision problems or the program comes out blotchy and pixellated or even worse. Unless technology vastly improves, I don't see myself dubbing my VHS collection to DVD anytime soon.
Greg
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Unless some INCREDIBLE piece of AI comes along that can accurately guess what the signal is missing to become complete and insert that into the data stream, you're just not going to see technology that takes a crappy-quality video and makes it good. These were the dice you folks rolled when you started passing around fifteenth-generation videos recorded in Shiatty Lame Play in the first place.
(The Macrovision issue, in a lot of cases, is totally circumventable, and since in most cases it just involves a) knowing the sequence of buttons to press on the remote to get into the recorder's service mode, or b) burning a firmware update to a DVD and sticking it in the recorder, I don't think it's nearly as dangerous as Matt does. Can Joe Sixpack do it? No. But if you are hardcore enough to have 100 or 500 or even 1,000 tapes, and you're transferring them all over to DVD, you're hardcore enough to investigate it.)