The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: kurtinrod62 on April 25, 2006, 12:57:54 PM
-
We've read about NBC's infamous erasure or destroying of its pre-1978 game shows, but how many of the peacock's past GS were there that managed to survive the "holocaust"?
-
[quote name=\'kurtinrod62\' post=\'116959\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 12:57 PM\']
We've read about NBC's infamous erasure or destroying of its pre-1978 game shows, but how many of the peacock's past GS were there that managed to survive the "holocaust"?
[/quote]
I'd just like to state for the record that comparing the erasure of television shows to the state-sponsored mass murder of millions of people is beyond idiotic.
Sorry, folks -- I know it's unmoderatorlike of me to be that blunt, but we've criticized other boards for similar comparisons and I don't like it any more when one of our members does it.
-
[quote name=\'kurtinrod62\' post=\'116959\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 11:57 AM\']
We've read about NBC's infamous erasure or destroying of its pre-1978 game shows, but how many of the peacock's past GS were there that managed to survive the "holocaust"?
[/quote]
Wow, that's tactless.
Brandon Brooks
-
Now that we know that 'kurtinrod62' accidentally stubbed his toe with this (I hope), back to the subject at hand, and let me reword this a little differently:
[quote name=\'kurtinrod62\' post=\'116959\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 11:57 AM\']
We've read about NBC's infamous erasure or destroying of its pre-1978 game shows, but how many of the peacock's past GS were there that managed to survive the ultimate "Dean Martin Roast"?
[/quote]
I apologise if I offended any Dean Martin fans with that one.
-
We've read about NBC's infamous erasure or destroying of its pre-1978 game shows, but how many of the peacock's past GS were there that managed to survive the ultimate "Dean Martin Roast"?
Some that we know of: Gong Show and Fun Factory. GSN has both, and has run episodes from both in the past. That may have been more of the foresight of the producers though, as Barris was very good about saving copies of his shows. Not sure how Fun Factory escaped the eraser. I think its been mentioned before that FF and others (such as Dealer's Choice) are now owned by Columbia Pictures Television, so that could be why its still around. That doesn't explain, however, why Dealer's Choice is still "lost" when FF exists. Both shows were on approximately around the same time.
There are scattered episodes of many other NBC series from before that time frame which are floating around.
-
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'116981\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 03:19 PM\']
We've read about NBC's infamous erasure or destroying of its pre-1978 game shows, but how many of the peacock's past GS were there that managed to survive the ultimate "Dean Martin Roast"?
Some that we know of: Gong Show and Fun Factory. GSN has both, and has run episodes from both in the past. That may have been more of the foresight of the producers though, as Barris was very good about saving copies of his shows. Not sure how Fun Factory escaped the eraser. I think its been mentioned before that FF and others (such as Dealer's Choice) are now owned by Columbia Pictures Television, so that could be why its still around. That doesn't explain, however, why Dealer's Choice is still "lost" when FF exists. Both shows were on approximately around the same time.
There are scattered episodes of many other NBC series from before that time frame which are floating around.
[/quote]
And I've heard off and on that the mass tape erasure may've been more urban legend than fact.
And remember--we're dealing here with programming that back then had no rerun value at all--attempts at syndicated repeats had been unsuccessful, the idea of a cable TV channel devoted entirely to game shows was ludicrous and the formats were what got sold overseas, not the actual programs--combine that with the cost of 2-inch video tape and it's not all that surprising that game shows got erased to reuse tape. But it should never be interpreted as a conspiracy to wipe out game shows.
-
A ton of Concentration episodes were donated to the Library of Congress, where they are deteriorating day by day with little chance of ever being seen again.
-
Celebrity Sweepstakes is sitting in Burt Sugarman's vault.
I'm compiling a more accurate "game show survival list," but off the top of my head, these NBC shows have at least ONE verified existing episode:
Baffle (4 known existing episodes)
Blank Check
Call My Bluff (1 trial run with Gene Rayburn & Betty White AND 1 regular ep. with Peggy Cass & Abe Burrows, both b/w)
It Takes Two (at least THREE are known to exist, there may be more)
Joe Garagiola's Memory Game
Namedroppers
Sale of the Century
Three on a Match (A total of EIGHT episodes are currently known to exist)
Tic Tac Dough (25 Barry episodes)
The Wizard of Odds (at least 2 episodes are known to exist, not counting the pilot which sits in Sony's vault)
Didn't someone once report that there were a considerable number of NBC Match Games and Say When episodes at the LoC?
--Jamie
-
And we haven't even touched what's in the Kansas salt mines. There's a ton of stuff stored there as well. Its well known that the early years of DOOL and Y&R are both stashed there along with what's left of the Carson library (which, btw, exists from mostly 1971 on)
-
[quote name=\'Terry K\' post=\'117009\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 07:10 PM\']
And we haven't even touched what's in the Kansas salt mines. There's a ton of stuff stored there as well. Its well known that the early years of DOOL and Y&R are both stashed there along with what's left of the Carson library (which, btw, exists from mostly 1971 on)
[/quote]
Yep, I have heard that what is left of old Carson Tonight Shows are in the library. I wish we could see Carson's first night on 10/1/1962.
Back to game shows, I hope there are more episodes of NBC Game Shows than they say exists. Especially of Concentration , the 1962-69 MG and more HS-Peter Marshall. That would be cool to see them again. especially all versions of Concentration,since NBC owns the rights. The peacock needs to lower the price for them now so GSN can show them.
-
[quote name=\'dzinkin\' post=\'116964\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 01:18 PM\']
[quote name=\'kurtinrod62\' post=\'116959\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 12:57 PM\']
We've read about NBC's infamous erasure or destroying of its pre-1978 game shows, but how many of the peacock's past GS were there that managed to survive the "holocaust"?
[/quote]
I'd just like to state for the record that comparing the erasure of television shows to the state-sponsored mass murder of millions of people is beyond idiotic.
Sorry, folks -- I know it's unmoderatorlike of me to be that blunt, but we've criticized other boards for similar comparisons and I don't like it any more when one of our members does it.
[/quote]
I agree with you and that needed to be said, thanks David.
-
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'116981\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 04:19 PM\']
I think its been mentioned before that FF and others (such as Dealer's Choice) are now owned by Columbia Pictures Television, so that could be why its still around. That doesn't explain, however, why Dealer's Choice is still "lost" when FF exists. Both shows were on approximately around the same time.
[/quote]
Columbia Pictures Television? I thought they were bought out by Sony years ago.
Then again, I don't follow the media ownership parade very closely, so I've probably missed several hundred steps in between. ;-)
-
[quote name=\'Fedya\' post=\'117021\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 07:42 PM\']Columbia Pictures Television? I thought they were bought out by Sony years ago.[/quote]
You are correct. For a few years they were known as "Columbia-Tristar Television," and a couple of years ago the name was changed to "Sony Pictures Television."
-
I don't doubt that NBC destroyed a lot of material in 1978, but isn't it a bit much to assume that the destruction of old NBC shows occurred all at once? Do TV historians believe that, up until that fateful day, Johnny Carson's first ten years of the "Tonight Show" still existed and all the episodes of the original "Jeopardy!" and "The Match Game" were sitting in the vaults? Isn't a more likely scenario that shows were disposed of over the years, maybe even within days or weeks of their airing?
I heard that at least one videotaped episode of the original "Match Game" escaped being erased and was shown on the Game Show Network. That makes me wish I'd gotten GSN way back when. Even though I came to GSN relatively late, I did get to see vintage shows in which the original end credits were scrolled respectfully - now, of course, they squash the credits into a little box so they can run a promo. Yuch.
-
Concerning this issue on tape preservation (or the lack thereof in this case), did the other forms of television such as sitcoms, news reels, sports, and soap operas get the same fate as the game shows, being erased and recorded over? Also how does Johnny Carson's programs get sent to a Kansas City Salt Mine, along with back episodes of Young & Restless (CBS/Bell/Corday property) and Days (NBC/Bell/Corday)?
ObGameShow: Carson was employed by Goodson-Todman early in his career.
-
Concerning this issue on tape preservation (or the lack thereof in this case), did the other forms of television such as sitcoms, news reels, sports, and soap operas get the same fate as the game shows, being erased and recorded over?
Somewhat. It's assumed most daytime programming from the '60s is gone. There's likely not much in the way of soaps from that time period that are still around. Part of the reason could be that many of the soaps were done live until the early '70s. I believe some All My Children episodes from early in its run exist only in black and white (all episodes were originally produced in color). I think its been mentioned before that most of the early years of ABC's Ryan's Hope, which debuted in 1975, don't exist.
Also, the first two Super Bowls don't seem to exist, as do many early seasons of the Tonight Show, which has already been pointed out.
-
One thing that Carson, Y&R and Days have in common is that Columbia (now Sony) had distribution rights so maybe Sony put them in the salt mine.
Even if the Super Bowl telecasts did exist, I have a feeling the NFL wouldn't let anyone see them, preferring you watch the majestic "larger-than-life" NFL Films version.
Quite a few of the old Groucho "You Bet Your Life" shows are out there and on DVD. I think "People are Funny" also exists on film, though I doubt anyone wants to see them.
The way I see it, the whole situation with the networks is akin to a friend asking you to tape a show for him on your tape. After he has watched it, given it back and shows no interest in asking you to keep it for him, does he have any sayso on whether you reuse the tape?
-
[quote name=\'14gameshows\' post=\'117032\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 08:56 AM\']Concerning this issue on tape preservation (or the lack thereof in this case), did the other forms of television such as sitcoms, news reels, sports, and soap operas get the same fate as the game shows?[/quote]
Just to be clear, you lumped "sitcoms" into this list, and typically they're a different animal than the rest. Scripted shows like sitcoms and dramas tended to be saved by their producers for their rerun potential. For most other forms, like games, soaps, talk, and yes, news and even (to a startling degree) sports, few people saw much need to keep them, especially considering the difficulty and expense involved.
I'm beginning to believe that the "great purge" story is probably based in some amount of fact, but has become exaggerated over time. On the one hand, it wouldn't surprise me that somebody saw a lot of stuff being saved, failed to see the value in it, and arranged to get rid of it. But on the other hand, a lot of stuff probably wasn't being saved to begin with. A Three on a Match contestant once told me that he spoke to Bob Stewart only a few weeks after his show had aired, and the show had already been erased. As Ian said, back when the daytime shows were live, it would have been absurdly and prohibitively expensive to try and maintain any sort of archive.
The good news is that even after all these years, "new" stuff is being unearthed every day.
-
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'117033\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 09:04 AM\']
I think its been mentioned before that most of the early years of ABC's Ryan's Hope, which debuted in 1975, don't exist.
[/quote]
This simply isn't true, as Soapnet has reran the show from the beginning twice in the last few years.
-
[quote name=\'NicholasM79\' post=\'117042\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 11:29 AM\']
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'117033\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 09:04 AM\']
I think its been mentioned before that most of the early years of ABC's Ryan's Hope, which debuted in 1975, don't exist.
[/quote]
This simply isn't true, as Soapnet has reran the show from the beginning twice in the last few years.
[/quote]
Correct -- SoapNet execs have said that certain episodes couldn't be found (they even promised to post the scripts of the missing shows on the network's web site), but "most of the early years" is way off.
-
Correct -- SoapNet execs have said that certain episodes couldn't be found (they even promised to post the scripts of the missing shows on the network's web site), but "most of the early years" is way off.
Hmmm...interesting. Maybe the networks made a better effort to save their soap operas once they stopped airing live, than they did their game shows. I find it curious that Ryan's Hope is still around, yet Show-Offs, Split Second and Password from the same time frame seem forever lost.
-
[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'117035\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 08:55 AM\']
One thing that Carson, Y&R and Days have in common is that Columbia (now Sony) had distribution rights so maybe Sony put them in the salt mine.
Quite a few of the old Groucho "You Bet Your Life" shows are out there and on DVD. I think "People are Funny" also exists on film, though I doubt anyone wants to see them.[/quote]
Sony only has distribution rights to the 130 "Carson's Comedy Classics" repackages and some of the prime time anniversary shows. Everything else is controlled by Carson Productions.
There is one verified instance of mass destruction--NBC did purposely burn down a warehouse in New Jersey where a lot of back films and kinescopes were kept in 1972. John Guedel heard that it was going to happen, bought back the rights to the "Best of Groucho" package and personally went to the warehouse a few days before the fire with Groucho's companion Erin Fleming to take the masters out themselves. (Whether he also retrieved "People Are Funny," I don't know.) A year or so later, he asked KTLA GM John Reynolds to air the shows late on Sunday nights as a favor to him and Groucho and charged him only a nominal fee. When it became a surprise hit in LA, "The Best of Groucho" returned to national syndication.
(I have a backup in that on one of the Steve Allen repackages that COM used to air, he mentioned that the only extant clips of the Allen "Tonight Show" are from an episode of his Sunday night variety show that did a clip show of "Tonight" and that the rest were destroyed in the NBC warehouse fire.)
And I have the feeling there are holes in "YBYL" before 1953, since the "Best of Groucho" package only covers September 1953 on (perhaps to avoid using Jerry Fielding's music cues--Jack Meakin took over as bandleader at that point).
-
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'117046\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 12:32 PM\']
Correct -- SoapNet execs have said that certain episodes couldn't be found (they even promised to post the scripts of the missing shows on the network's web site), but "most of the early years" is way off.
Hmmm...interesting. Maybe the networks made a better effort to save their soap operas once they stopped airing live, than they did their game shows. I find it curious that Ryan's Hope is still around, yet Show-Offs, Split Second and Password from the same time frame seem forever lost.
[/quote]
One difference might be that ABC had an ownership stake in their soaps (save P&G's "EON") but had no further exploitation rights to the game shows that they aired. Procter and Gamble might have a lot of their old sudsers in their archives.
What sets game show fans and soap fans apart is the average soap fan has no interest in seeing old episodes of their favorite soaps. So even if Roy Thinnes' last appearance on General Hospital in 1966 is missing, who cares?
-
just when you think you've heard it all, you don't....NBC purposely burning down a warehouse full of old tapes and kinescopes.
Nowadays when a series is taken off of a network, does the tapes go immediatly back to the series creator/distributor or do they stay with the network until the creator/distributor puts in a request to have the property?
Interesting thread.
-
I don't think Mark said anything about tapes being burned, just film and kinescopes. Mark: Was it done to extract the silver content from the films for resale, or what was the reason?
-
I would think that there would be a great rerun value in Soap Operas just like with game shows. Hmm.
I would also think that old soap fans would want to see the original cast member who protrated Jill Foster Abbott compared to the current cast member on Y&R.
ObGameshow: The cast members of Y&R have been on special event weeks of Family Feud.
-
Was it done to extract the silver content from the films for resale, or what was the reason?
It was done for the insurance money.
[ducks]
-
[quote name=\'pyl85\' post=\'117073\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 04:13 PM\']
It was done for the insurance money.
[/quote]
Umm, yeah.
The good news is that even after all these years, "new" stuff is being unearthed every day.
Just asking...what was the last "new" gameshow that was unearthed? Was it Marshall's Hollywood Squares? (As a note, I can't stand it when people say "Marshall's H²").
-
As far as sitcoms go...
"Mr. Peepers" with Wally Cox is gone.
-
[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'117081\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 07:25 PM\']
The good news is that even after all these years, "new" stuff is being unearthed every day.
Just asking...what was the last "new" gameshow that was unearthed? Was it Marshall's Hollywood Squares? (As a note, I can't stand it when people say "Marshall's H²").
[/quote]
It was known beforehand the syndicated episodes of Marshall HS existed, as was reported years ago on ATGS. The NBC primetime episodes from 1968 were the really long-lost shows no one was expecting to see.
-
[quote name=\'DoorNumberFour\' post=\'117082\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 07:28 PM\']
As far as sitcoms go...
"Mr. Peepers" with Wally Cox is gone.
[/quote]
No, it's not. (http://\"http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BNMX0G/002-3732704-4988018\")
-
[quote name='Ian Wallis' date='Apr 26 2006, 09:04 AM' post='117033']
I believe some All My Children episodes from early in its run exist only in black and white (all episodes were originally produced in color).
This is true. The story I've heard (take it with a grain of salt now, as you should with any other story of this nature) is that sometime in the 1970s, a massive storage house fire (I assume an accidental one) mostly destroyed the first six years of the show (and who knows what other shows that were in ABC's possesion). All that's left are the few episodes that survived the fire, kinescopes of the first few months, and a few Emmy tapes that some of the show's stars graciously donated back to ABC.
Greg
-
[quote name=\'uncamark\' post=\'117047\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 11:39 AM\']
(I have a backup in that on one of the Steve Allen repackages that COM used to air, he mentioned that the only extant clips of the Allen "Tonight Show" are from an episode of his Sunday night variety show that did a clip show of "Tonight" and that the rest were destroyed in the NBC warehouse fire.)
And I have the feeling there are holes in "YBYL" before 1953, since the "Best of Groucho" package only covers September 1953 on (perhaps to avoid using Jerry Fielding's music cues--Jack Meakin took over as bandleader at that point).
[/quote]
Two separate corrections:
1) UCLA has a pile of material from Steve Allen-era Tonight Shows.
2) While there are some episodes of YBYL that either 1) Don't exist or 2) Only exist in the form used in the 1960's syndication package, the issue keeping early episodes out of circulation was a dispute with one of the show's writers.
-
Just asking...what was the last "new" gameshow that was unearthed
Haggis Baggis with Dennis James and more It Takes Two episodes. There were also some pretty awesome discoveries ones right before those.
Furthermore, the title of "newest game show discovery" changes often...
--Jamie
-
Really? I thought "Mr. Peepers" was live when it was broadcast, and therefore not recorded.
-
Actually, Jamie, I think the most recent news would be about the 1958 episode of "Top Dollar" that was found, and in its original videotape format...!
For the record, the archivists and engineers that I've talked to (both active and retired) have stated that there was no "mass erasure" at any of the Big 3. Whatever attrition there has been in programming is due to recycling of (then-expensive) tape stock, rather than wanton destruction. In any case, where a show was owned or produced by an entity outside of the network, attempts were made to contact that entity before their tapes were re-used, or moved from storage. The only single incident that I have had personally verified is the incident that Edie Adams related in her testimony before Congress.
The problem basically boils down to the fact that many daytime shows were network-produced, so they were often never truly archived in the first place. Tapes would be cycled for re-use until they wore out, or failed to meet broadcast standards.
For me, the surprising exception to daytime destruction is "Concentration", which I'm told survives mostly intact, but locked securely in the vaults.
To elaborate on a few other points in the thread, there is indeed some amount of Allen-era "Tonight Show"s still around-- I just uncovered one myself, a few months ago. And of course, NBC holds some. Carson's shows are in the salt mine because he owned his era of "Tonight", and that's where Carson Productions elects to store them. And the single known preserved-on-videotape episode of the 60s "Match Game" has never been shown on GSN, but **is** avaialble for viewing at the Museum of Television & Radio.
-Kevin
-
[quote name=\'TwoInchQuad\' post=\'117102\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 11:48 PM\']
Actually, Jamie, I think the most recent news would be about the 1958 episode of "Top Dollar" that was found, and in its original videotape format...!
For the record, the archivists and engineers that I've talked to (both active and retired) have stated that there was no "mass erasure" at any of the Big 3. Whatever attrition there has been in programming is due to recycling of (then-expensive) tape stock, rather than wanton destruction. In any case, where a show was owned or produced by an entity outside of the network, attempts were made to contact that entity before their tapes were re-used, or moved from storage. The only single incident that I have had personally verified is the incident that Edie Adams related in her testimony before Congress.
The problem basically boils down to the fact that many daytime shows were network-produced, so they were often never truly archived in the first place. Tapes would be cycled for re-use until they wore out, or failed to meet broadcast standards.
For me, the surprising exception to daytime destruction is "Concentration", which I'm told survives mostly intact, but locked securely in the vaults.
To elaborate on a few other points in the thread, there is indeed some amount of Allen-era "Tonight Show"s still around-- I just uncovered one myself, a few months ago. And of course, NBC holds some. Carson's shows are in the salt mine because he owned his era of "Tonight", and that's where Carson Productions elects to store them. And the single known preserved-on-videotape episode of the 60s "Match Game" has never been shown on GSN, but **is** avaialble for viewing at the Museum of Television & Radio.
-Kevin
[/quote]
Thank you for your informed as well as informative response.
When you say "Concentration," do you mean the very first version hosted by Hugh Downs? I'm acquainted with someone who appeared on that show, and it would be a fascination if his episode still existed - and totally frustrating not to be able to get at it.
Don't think it's been mentioned in this forum, but this month (April 14, to be exact) marked the 50th anniversary of the first public demonstration of the first Ampex videotape recorder, in Chicago. GSN has shown videotaped episodes of "Password" from 1962, and whenever I see one, I think: Wow. Only six years after Ampex came out with its VTR.
-
Actually, Jamie, I think the most recent news would be about the 1958 episode of "Top Dollar" that was found, and in its original videotape format
Ah yes, but I thought the original poster was referring to the latest new NBC discovery. Top Dollar was CBS, right? Still, I forgot about that one too. Thanks for the reminder. :-D
--Jamie
-
[quote name=\'MrBuddwing\' post=\'117103\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 08:03 PM\']
Thank you for your informed as well as informative response.
When you say "Concentration," do you mean the very first version hosted by Hugh Downs? I'm acquainted with someone who appeared on that show, and it would be a fascination if his episode still existed - and totally frustrating not to be able to get at it.
[/quote]
Yup-- the first version. And I know what you mean about frustration-- there's an episode I'd love to get for a friend, whose aunt appeared on the show. Probably not gonna happen anytime soon, though...
-Kevin
-
[quote name=\'TwoInchQuad\' post=\'117112\' date=\'Apr 27 2006, 01:33 AM\']
[quote name=\'MrBuddwing\' post=\'117103\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 08:03 PM\']
Thank you for your informed as well as informative response.
When you say "Concentration," do you mean the very first version hosted by Hugh Downs? I'm acquainted with someone who appeared on that show, and it would be a fascination if his episode still existed - and totally frustrating not to be able to get at it.
[/quote]
Yup-- the first version. And I know what you mean about frustration-- there's an episode I'd love to get for a friend, whose aunt appeared on the show. Probably not gonna happen anytime soon, though...
-Kevin
[/quote]
Well, if they're in the Library of Congress....anybody here want to run for Congress??? Think of it--high pay, lots of time off and a whole library of "Concentration" eps. :)
-
[quote name=\'MrBuddwing\' post=\'117103\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 08:03 PM\']
Well, if they're in the Library of Congress....anybody here want to run for Congress??? Think of it--high pay, lots of time off and a whole library of "Concentration" eps. :)
[/quote]
Actually you only have to be in the DC area to use the Library of Congress. You have to make an appointment to view video materials though.
Greg
-
[quote name=\'DoorNumberFour\' post=\'117097\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 10:07 PM\']
Really? I thought "Mr. Peepers" was live when it was broadcast, and therefore not recorded.
[/quote]
Mr. Peepers was indeed broadcast live, but as was explained in the link I provided for you, films were made off the television monitors so that the show could be rebroadcast to other parts of the country. These films, the kinescopes, are what still exist, and DVDs of the kinescopes are what Amazon is selling.
As I believe that this is the second time that you have missed the distinction between a videotape and a kinescope, you would do well to learn and understand the difference.
-
[quote name=\'snowpeck\' post=\'117127\' date=\'Apr 27 2006, 05:46 AM\']Actually you only have to be in the DC area to use the Library of Congress. You have to make an appointment to view video materials though.[/quote]
However - again - the Concentration episodes are still on their original kinescopes, and nobody in the LoC is going to spend hundreds of dollars a whack to let you watch 45-year-old game show episodes.
Run for Congress, and then get them to pass the Hugh Downs Preservation Act, and then maybe you've got something.
-
Strangely enough, last night on of all places BET-J there was a special about a recording of a concert that Thelonious Monk and John Coltrane did together. A jazz historian knew it had to have been recorded, since it was later heard on VOA. It took several years before they finally found it at the Library of Congress, since it was simply cataloged as "Carniege Hall Jazz". They eventually remastered it and was released last year (http://\"http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=ADFEAEE47A1CD249AE7020C99F3D11E9B172E01DD64FF380156E4450C8A933499E1E72F349D895C9AEF872AB7BAFFF28E85B0DD9CEE95CFCDB765D40&sql=10:p8548qmxbtn4\").
Getting back to the topic at hand, one of the Library of Congress people on the special said that they were in the process of digitizing all of their recordings. I don't know if that was just audio or audio and video, but it is something they're doing, and would probably make the chances of seeing of this stuff maybe possible within 5 years.
--Mike
-
Sorry if I caused all the hubbub over the use of the word "holocaust'', may one of you give me a Moe Howard-like poke in the eyes [I'm a victim of circumstance].
-
[quote name=\'kurtinrod62\' post=\'117156\' date=\'Apr 27 2006, 09:57 AM\']
Sorry if I caused all the hubbub over the use of the word "holocaust'', may one of you give me a Moe Howard-like poke in the eyes [I'm a victim of circumstance].
[/quote]No, you're a victim of incredibly poor word choice. Go out and pick up a dictionary, and read it a few pages at a time. Eventually you'll have gotten through all of it, and you'll know that 'holocaust' is not even close to the right word for something as comparatively insignificant as the destruction of game show tapes.
-
[quote name=\'dzinkin\' post=\'116964\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 01:18 PM\']
[quote name=\'kurtinrod62\' post=\'116959\' date=\'Apr 25 2006, 12:57 PM\']
We've read about NBC's infamous erasure or destroying of its pre-1978 game shows, but how many of the peacock's past GS were there that managed to survive the "holocaust"?
[/quote]
I'd just like to state for the record that comparing the erasure of television shows to the state-sponsored mass murder of millions of people is beyond idiotic.
Sorry, folks -- I know it's unmoderatorlike of me to be that blunt, but we've criticized other boards for similar comparisons and I don't like it any more when one of our members does it.
[/quote]
I was going to say the same thing. I'm against political correctness and all that, especially having been at a college that had "speech police," but I feel the same way you do. He has his freedom of speech and I have the right to disagree.
-
Very facinating topic here.
Ian mentioned that most of the 60s daytime shows are non-exisistant, espcially those that were live. I wonder how CBS got around to taping as an aircheck the 11/22/1963 live broadcast of As the World Turns. I want to think that Proctor & Gamble wanted some record of their own show for posterity.....what they got that day was an eventual 4-day aircheck of a historic event, as ATWT was interrupted 10 minutes into the broadcast for that CBS News bulletin slide and Cronkite's voice delivering the first reports on the shooting of President Kennedy. Anyhow, it is interesting that a daytime program from 1963 still survives in tape form. I'm even more suprised that a tape apparently still exists of Who Do You Trust from a few years before; I mentioned on another post that this showed Ed McMahon trying to do a cake commercial only to be interrupted by Johnny in a little car speeding around and crashing into the commercial set....this clip was shown on one of the 80s blooper shows as I recall.
-
[quote name=\'JCGames\' post=\'117220\' date=\'Apr 27 2006, 09:50 PM\']
Very facinating topic here.
Ian mentioned that most of the 60s daytime shows are non-exisistant, espcially those that were live. I wonder how CBS got around to taping as an aircheck the 11/22/1963 live broadcast of As the World Turns. I want to think that Proctor & Gamble wanted some record of their own show for posterity.....what they got that day was an eventual 4-day aircheck of a historic event, as ATWT was interrupted 10 minutes into the broadcast for that CBS News bulletin slide and Cronkite's voice delivering the first reports on the shooting of President Kennedy. Anyhow, it is interesting that a daytime program from 1963 still survives in tape form. I'm even more suprised that a tape apparently still exists of Who Do You Trust from a few years before; I mentioned on another post that this showed Ed McMahon trying to do a cake commercial only to be interrupted by Johnny in a little car speeding around and crashing into the commercial set....this clip was shown on one of the 80s blooper shows as I recall.
[/quote]
Re JFK: It's my understanding that, way back when, CBS' policy was to run a videotaped aircheck of its programming. (Maybe that policy is still in effect today.) There probably would have been no intention of keeping the aircheck more than a few days - but breaking news of the assassination of a president makes for one heck of an exception. That's why we still have Cronkite's first (off-camera) bulletin interrupting "As the World Turns."
Re "Who Do You Trust?": Those clips of Johnny Carson and Ed McMahon first aired on one of the "Life's Most Embarrassing Moments" specials on ABC. Since Dick Clark and Ed McMahon were doing their bloopers and practical jokes show at the time, it doesn't seem surprising that once they got wind of the existence of the ABC tape, their producers licensed it. As I recall, the tape looked much better on ABC - on NBC, it had that "crooked" look that sometimes afflicted early two-inch tapes. Maybe the NBC engineers couldn't tweak the tape enough to make it look straight. A technoid I'm not.
-
[quote name=\'MrBuddwing\' post=\'117221\' date=\'Apr 27 2006, 07:06 PM\']Re JFK: It's my understanding that, way back when, CBS' policy was to run a videotaped aircheck of its programming. (Maybe that policy is still in effect today.) There probably would have been no intention of keeping the aircheck more than a few days - but breaking news of the assassination of a president makes for one heck of an exception. That's why we still have Cronkite's first (off-camera) bulletin interrupting "As the World Turns."[/quote]
In 1988, A&E ran several hours' worth of NBC's coverage from November 22, 1963...which had to be joined in progress because NBC hadn't started recording until about seven minutes into their special report.
-
[quote name=\'MrBuddwing\' post=\'117221\' date=\'Apr 27 2006, 07:06 PM\']Re JFK: It's my understanding that, way back when, CBS' policy was to run a videotaped aircheck of its programming. (Maybe that policy is still in effect today.) There probably would have been no intention of keeping the aircheck more than a few days - but breaking news of the assassination of a president makes for one heck of an exception. That's why we still have Cronkite's first (off-camera) bulletin interrupting "As the World Turns."[/quote]
I believe that in 1963 there was still an FCC mandate about the networks retaining copies of their live broadcasts for a short period of time (I **think** it was 2 weeks), in case there were any complaints regarding what had aired. That way, there would be an actual aircheck record.
In the case of the CBS assassination videotape, it could be **that** preserved aircheck tape is the source of their News Archive copy, or it might even be a tape of the feed of the live ATWT broadcast that was being recorded for later playback in the Central or Western time zones.
Also-- although there is no visual record of NBC's first bulletins, amazingly enough, an audio recording of Don Pardo's initial break-in announcements does survive.
-Kevin
-
I wonder if an audio recording exists at least of ABC's inital break-in.....the duty announcer that day was Milton Cross, the voice of opera. I read somewhere that after he read the first bulletin over a slide, the ABC suits were thinking of putting Mr. Cross on camera to report further bulletins, but they decided not for fear of unduly alarming the viewers.
Don Pardo's cut in occured when NBC wasn't feeding a program; in New York WNBC was running a rerun of Bachelor Father. The first bulletin was a local interruption at 142pm....the network was patched up at 145 for another voiceover bulletin read by Mr. Pardo. David Brinkley recalled that in Washington WRC was still running what he called a 'silly fashion show' when the news of the shooting was coming over the wires.
-
Run for Congress, and then get them to pass the Hugh Downs Preservation Act, and then maybe you've got something.
Oh, if only there were a former game show host in Congress.
-
Also-- although there is no visual record of NBC's first bulletins, amazingly enough, an audio recording of Don Pardo's initial break-in announcements does survive.
I'm embarrassed to admit that in my mind, I hear him breaking the news in game-show-announcer intonation.
-
[quote name=\'Jay Temple\' post=\'117553\' date=\'May 2 2006, 04:13 PM\']
Also-- although there is no visual record of NBC's first bulletins, amazingly enough, an audio recording of Don Pardo's initial break-in announcements does survive.
I'm embarrassed to admit that in my mind, I hear him breaking the news in game-show-announcer intonation.
[/quote]
Many years ago, the parents and I are driving up the New Jersey Turnpike to New York from South Jersey and I'm listening to WNNNNBC (well, they didn't say it that way back then) on my transistor in the back seat. The network news ends, the Monitor Beacon comes up and then down for "And from the WNBC newsroom, this is Don Pardo with the latest New York headlines..." Of course, he did it straight, but when you're used to hearing him say "BILLLL CULLEN!" or "JEOP-AR-DY!" (and remember, this is before "IT'S SATURDAY NIGHT LIIIIIVVEEE!"), it's still a strange thing.
Science Channel has done marathons of the original (well, what exists on kinescope or tape) "Mr. Wizard." On some of those, Pardo is the announcer and it's still strange to hear him do the lower-keyed "Watch Mr. Wizard! That's what all of the kids in the neighborhood say..." in the opening and "this has been a public affairs presentation of NBC News..." at the end. You just expect an over-the-top delivery from him.
-
I believe that in 1963 there was still an FCC mandate about the networks retaining copies of their live broadcasts for a short period of time (I **think** it was 2 weeks), in case there were any complaints regarding what had aired. That way, there would be an actual aircheck record.
I believe they were only required to keep an audio tape recording. Probably the logger tape recorder was going at all of 15/16 ips.
it might even be a tape of the feed of the live ATWT broadcast that was being recorded for later playback in the Central or Western time zones.
That sounds plausible. If NBC wasn't feeding the network it would explain why they didn't have a D.B. videotape.
-
[quote name=\'zachhoran\' post=\'117083\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 07:30 PM\']
as was reported years ago on ATGS[/quote]
No. No! NO! That phrase! That maddening phrase!!!!!
About Don Pardo, it is safe to presume that at age 88 he doesn't do the SNL warm-up or read the intro live?
-
[quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'117785\' date=\'May 5 2006, 09:28 AM\']
[quote name=\'zachhoran\' post=\'117083\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 07:30 PM\']
as was reported years ago on ATGS[/quote]
No. No! NO! That phrase! That maddening phrase!!!!!
About Don Pardo, it is safe to presume that at age 88 he doesn't do the SNL warm-up or read the intro live?
[/quote]
AFAIK, he's never done the warmup--it's always been Lorne and/or some other cast members. (Seems to me that Belushi and Ayhroyd's Blues Brothers bit was started in the warmup.)
As for being there in person, don't know--when NPR's Susan Stamberg did a piece on him some years ago for "Weekend Edition," he was still doing the show live (and proudly showed Susan his podium, formerly used by Arturo Toscanini to conduct the NBC Symphony in 8-H), but that was over 10 years ago (the only reference to Pardo on NPR's web site is the use of a "Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood" "SNL" sketch in "Talk of the Nation"'s 2003 tribute to Fred Rogers).
-
[quote name=\'uncamark\' post=\'117797\' date=\'May 5 2006, 12:03 PM\']As for being there in person, don't know--when NPR's Susan Stamberg did a piece on him some years ago for "Weekend Edition," he was still doing the show live (and proudly showed Susan his podium, formerly used by Arturo Toscanini to conduct the NBC Symphony in 8-H), but that was over 10 years ago (the only reference to Pardo on NPR's web site is the use of a "Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood" "SNL" sketch in "Talk of the Nation"'s 2003 tribute to Fred Rogers).
[/quote]
I could swear I've heard mistakes in the intro this season, which led me to believe he was still doing them live.
-
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'117801\' date=\'May 5 2006, 11:17 AM\']
I could swear I've heard mistakes in the intro this season, which led me to believe he was still doing them live.
[/quote]
I also heard one instance of him recently sounding awfully hoarse. I don't think he would've sounded like that on air if he still didn't do it live.
He does bring a sense of legitimacy to the show, god bless him.
Brandon Brooks
-
Saw the show 3 years ago. Don was there , doing 'part' of the warmup, sharing duties with a younger comedian (at his age, who isn't younger?)....
That led me to believe that he did the announce live, since he was there.
-
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'117801\' date=\'May 5 2006, 12:17 PM\']
I could swear I've heard mistakes in the intro this season, which led me to believe he was still doing them live.
[/quote]
Yes, Don Pardo is still live for SNL, although I'm not sure how long he sticks around (they have a different announcer doing promotional plugs after the musical guest, which makes me think Don does the opening and calls it a night).
They've phased out the inspired sign-offs that Don did during the first decade of the show ("This is Don Pardo saying I'm so very lonely in this announcers booth. Johnny Olson, if you're still awake, please give me a call! Goodniiii-iiiight...") mainly because the credits get chopped off in the live broadcast anyway. Also, in the first five years, he did a fake pre-emption notice at the start of each episode ("Charlie's Angels Get Syphillis" will not air tonight...) They also used him for skits all the time in the golden days ("Waiting for Pardo," "The Don Pardo Story," etc.) but that's been wiped too. I don't know if it's the natural progression of things or a specific request from someone, but Don's not nearly as involved in the show as he used to be.
About once a year it seems they will use him in some extra capacity. Don kicked Johnny Knoxville in the groin during his monologue in 2005. In 2004, a sketch ended with him laying in bed next to Jimmy Fallon and Chris Parnell. And that's what Don Pardo's been up to, for all you game show fans who don't watch Saturday Night Live.
-
[quote name=\'Adam Nedeff\' post=\'117809\' date=\'May 5 2006, 11:33 AM\']
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'117801\' date=\'May 5 2006, 12:17 PM\']
I could swear I've heard mistakes in the intro this season, which led me to believe he was still doing them live.
[/quote]
Yes, Don Pardo is still live for SNL, although I'm not sure how long he sticks around (they have a different announcer doing promotional plugs after the musical guest, which makes me think Don does the opening and calls it a night).
They've phased out the inspired sign-offs that Don did during the first decade of the show ("This is Don Pardo saying I'm so very lonely in this announcers booth. Johnny Olson, if you're still awake, please give me a call! Goodniiii-iiiight...") mainly because the credits get chopped off in the live broadcast anyway. Also, in the first five years, he did a fake pre-emption notice at the start of each episode ("Charlie's Angels Get Syphillis" will not air tonight...) They also used him for skits all the time in the golden days ("Waiting for Pardo," "The Don Pardo Story," etc.) but that's been wiped too. I don't know if it's the natural progression of things or a specific request from someone, but Don's not nearly as involved in the show as he used to be.[/quote]
"This is has-been Don Pardo--uh, this has-been is Don Pardo--uh, this has been Don Pardo and it always will be--by the way, I'm speaking to you stark naked! Good niiiight!"
Some writers always felt that Pardo blew too many lines--notorious perfectionist Michael O'Donoghue was the most vocal about that and got Pardo taken off in 1981 for Mel Brandt. One year later, with O'Donoghue fired for the combination of the Fear "riot" and the unshot sketch "Fred Silverman in the Bunker," Dick Ebersol brought Pardo back and he hasn't left since.
-
[quote name=\'Adam Nedeff\' post=\'117809\' date=\'May 5 2006, 09:33 AM\']
About once a year it seems they will use him in some extra capacity. Don kicked Johnny Knoxville in the groin during his monologue in 2005.
[/quote]
TELL me this is on YouTube.
-
More recently, Pardo was "fixed up" with Mary Alice, the unseen narrator of Desperate Housewives, during Eva Longoria's monologue.
-
..and didn't Don have a tiny bit in the 4/29 all TV Funhouse show? Wasn't that Don leaning out an office window, calling out for Ace and Gary to take him with them when they flew off at show's end?
-
We heard from Don Pardo almost two years ago when he delivered an audio tribute to Bill Cullen at the Game Show Congreff. He apologized for some minor laryngitis on the tape but sounded positively vibrant to my ears.
-
[quote name=\'Adam Nedeff\' post=\'117809\' date=\'May 5 2006, 09:33 AM\']Yes, Don Pardo is still live for SNL, although I'm not sure how long he sticks around (they have a different announcer doing promotional plugs after the musical guest, which makes me think Don does the opening and calls it a night).[/quote]
When he messes up the live intro, it gets fixed for the West Coast feed. I like to picture them punishing him by making him wait around until 1:00 to do the re-record, but I have a feeling it gets done earlier than that -- during the first commercial break, I would assume.
-
I have heard that Mr. Pardo lives in Arizona now, and NBC flies him in each week to do SNL.
And yes, that was Don in the closing segment for the "Best of TV Funhouse" episode last week. As The Ambiguously Gay Duo were flying away, Don runs into the room, yelling "Take me with you!!" Lorne Michaels turns to him and says, "Don, go back to your booth." Head down, Don turns around and slinks off.
[quote name=\'trainman\' post=\'117863\' date=\'May 5 2006, 10:56 PM\']
When he messes up the live intro, it gets fixed for the West Coast feed. I like to picture them punishing him by making him wait around until 1:00 to do the re-record, but I have a feeling it gets done earlier than that -- during the first commercial break, I would assume.
[/quote]
I imagine. The recent messup that, for some reason, sticks in my head, was when he was supposed to say "Will Forte" he starts to say "Will FERRELL" but his mike is cut off and all we hear is FERR.
The only other time I hear his voice on the show is for the voiceover announcement for the host/musical guest for the next week's program midway into the show. Is that done live or recorded and laid over the live applause?
-
That doesn't explain, however, why Dealer's Choice is still "lost" when FF exists.
Perhaps an ownership dispute stemming from that first half-season, which had an independent distributor and no involvement from Columbia?
I want to think that Proctor & Gamble wanted some record of their own show for posterity.....what they got that day was an eventual 4-day aircheck of a historic event, as ATWT was interrupted 10 minutes into the broadcast for that CBS News bulletin slide and Cronkite's voice delivering the first reports on the shooting of President Kennedy.
Incidentally, that ATWT ep was recently posted on World of Soap Themes' bonus page...unfortunately, you now have to be a subscriber and pay a yearly fee to be able to view any such material there.
Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby")
-
I'm just back from 8H. Don does indeed do the announce live for SNL. He's in a fully enclosed and rather roomy booth at the rear left of the studio. He has a sport jacket and three ties hanging on a hook in the booth. I assume he only wears one tie at any given time ;-)
Randy
tvrandywest.com
-
Now to the topic of our lost television heritage...
Kudos to twoinchquad for accuracy in his earlier post.
Here's a thorough overview of the state of TV archiving, including specific information from the big 3 networks and studios: http://www.loc.gov/film/tvstudy.html (http://\"http://www.loc.gov/film/tvstudy.html\")
Read this for more discussion of CBS and ABC news archives, as well as technical information about tape preservation and restoration (Kitty Carlisle Hart is part of this discusion): http://www.loc.gov/film/hrng96ny.html (http://\"http://www.loc.gov/film/hrng96ny.html\")
Edie Adams "tells it as it is" here: http://www.loc.gov/film/hrng96la.html (http://\"http://www.loc.gov/film/hrng96la.html\"). You'll love her story of the destruction of the DuMont library. " ... three huge semis back up to the loading dock at ABC, filled them all with stored kinescopes and 2" videotapes, drove them to a waiting barge in New Jersey, took them out on the water, made a right at the Statue of Liberty and dumped them in the Upper New York Bay. "
This site also includes statements from all the major studios, as well as a history of video recording. "... The Ampex VR-1000 was introduced in Chicago at the National Association of Radio and Television Broadcasters Conference on April 14, 1956. At the NAB Conference, Ampex sold 90 machines at a cost of $50,000 each, for a total of $4.5 million, which wasn't bad for a small company in those days... The first on-air broadcast of videotaped material occurred on November 30, 1956, with the CBS Douglas Edwards evening news broadcast. The show was time-delayed by using videotape recorders in each time zone. And that's why the Ampex marketing people had a limited vision of how many tape recorders would be sold. They thought it would only be used for time delay, not for anything else."
And the site has the story of the Goodson-Todman shows and CBS' "Jurassic Park". "CBS entered into a contract with Mark Goodson Productions to transfer their entire library of approximately 34,000 programs from their current formats, which consisted of 16mm kinescopes, 2" and 1" videotape, to serial digital betacam format... Over 34,637 shows were transferred. Approximately 2700 of these programs originated on kinescope. The rest were transfers all from videotape originals. None of the tapes in the Goodson collection had been stored in what anyone would call "proper" videotape storage environments. They were basically stored in "furniture" warehouses where the temperature and humidity changed along with the weather. There was even a rumor that about 8,000 of the tapes were stored on pallets covered in black plastic, on the back lot of one of the other studios in town, for several years."
Somewhere I also have a list of what specific shows are stored in the Library of Congress. But that must wait for another day. ;-)
Randy
tvrandywest.com
-
Interesting reading. I think a quote from the report in Randy's first link bears mentioning:
"While the general public identifies these programs with the networks that broadcast them, the studios in fact produced them, own the underlying rights, and ultimately are responsible for their preservation."
-
What amused me:
"This is a plain, ASCII version of the report. Eventually, this document will be converted to html format and footnote text will be added and linked to the footnote numbers."
In other words, the story about TV archiving is itself in an older, poorer-quality format and needs to be converted to a more modern standard.
-
[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'117936\' date=\'May 7 2006, 11:25 AM\']
Read this for more discussion of CBS and ABC news archives, as well as technical information about tape preservation and restoration (Kitty Carlisle Hart is part of this discusion): http://www.loc.gov/film/hrng96ny.html (http://\"http://www.loc.gov/film/hrng96ny.html\")[/quote]
Not to mention "IGAS" announcer John Cannon and staffer Judy Crichton.
And we have to admire Edie Adams' foresight to be able to preserve as much of her husband's classic work as she could.