The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Jeremy Nelson on March 28, 2006, 06:50:54 PM
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About a month ago, somebody put 6 episodes of Classic Concentration up for sale on Ebay. The episodes sold for nearly $100, as I remember. Is that illegal? I'm just asking because I know that the rules for most traders clearly say that they don't trade for cash.
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Would you burn a CD of your favorite songs and sell it on Ebay?
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[quote name=\'rollercoaster87\' post=\'114517\' date=\'Mar 28 2006, 03:50 PM\']
About a month ago, somebody put 6 episodes of Classic Concentration up for sale on Ebay. The episodes sold for nearly $100, as I remember. Is that illegal?
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Selling copyrighted material they don't own the rights to? Yeah, I'd call that illegal. What I would like to know is: - what abject moron is willing to pay $100 for CC episodes,
- whether they actually paid up, and
- why can't I find a moron like that who has a hard-on for Iron Chef?
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About a several months ago, somebody put 6 episodes of Classic Concentration some audio cassettes of copyrighted Score Productions music up for sale on Ebay. The episodes sold for nearly $100, as I remember. Is that illegal?
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'114531\' date=\'Mar 28 2006, 07:55 PM\']
- why can't I find a moron like that who has a hard-on for Iron Chef?
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Disguise it as a "Mystery Prize", and you'll be all set. :-P
Oh, and offer a free gazpacho coupon.
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Alright, alright, I get it. It's illegal. Thanks for clearing that up.
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About a several months ago, somebody put 6 episodes of Classic Concentration some audio cassettes of copyrighted Score Productions music up for sale on Ebay. The episodes sold for nearly $100, as I remember. Is that illegal?
I may be missing some details here, but if I buy a Prince CD or get it for Easter, then turn around and sell it on Ebay, that's illegal? If I compiled a CD and tried to sell it, or stole a CD outright, I can see how that's illegal. How does the rule work? (No sarcasm here; I just see some gray area.)
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[quote name=\'dale_grass\' post=\'114637\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 01:55 PM\']
I may be missing some details here, but if I buy a Prince CD or get it for Easter, then turn around and sell it on Ebay, that's illegal? If I compiled a CD and tried to sell it, or stole a CD outright, I can see how that's illegal. How does the rule work? (No sarcasm here; I just see some gray area.)
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If you made a copy of the Prince CD for yourself, then sold the original while keeping the copy, that would be illegal. If you whined to Prince's reps about being a really big fan, and for your efforts you got a not-for-resale promotional copy of his CD (like the ones radio stations get), and then you turned around and sold it anyway, that would be illegal.
Substitute "Score Productions tape" for "Prince CD" and you'll have an idea of what the miscreant in question did.
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[quote name=\'dzinkin\' post=\'114639\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 02:17 PM\']If you made a copy of the Prince CD for yourself, then sold the original while keeping the copy, that would be illegal.[/quote]
That's a wee bit misleading. The act of reselling the original CD is not illegal. Most of Ebay is built around reselling original items. It's the act of making a copy for yourself that's illegal. Naturally this is impossible to police so it goes on all the time.
Theoretically, when the Copyright Police raid your home, they'll see all these copies and they'll say, politely at first, "We assume these are your backup copies. May we see your originals, please?" Then, when you can't produce them, it's off to Copyright Prison with you.
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That's a wee bit misleading. The act of reselling the original CD is not illegal. Most of Ebay is built around reselling original items. It's the act of making a copy for yourself that's illegal. Naturally this is impossible to police so it goes on all the time.
I always thought of it as "fair use". If I have a bunch of CDs and want to make a compilation CD of the best tracks from each, as long as I don't sell it it isn't illegal.
If you whined to Prince's reps about being a really big fan, and for your efforts you got a not-for-resale promotional copy of his CD (like the ones radio stations get), and then you turned around and sold it anyway, that would be illegal.
Technically I agree with that, although you do see promo CDs and records on e-bay all the time.
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'114645\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 02:26 PM\']
It's the act of making a copy for yourself that's illegal. [/quote]
Is it? I thought making a backup was perfect legit...would have came in handy when my car got busted into.
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'114658\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 04:26 PM\']
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'114645\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 02:26 PM\']
It's the act of making a copy for yourself that's illegal. [/quote]
Is it? I thought making a backup was perfect legit...would have came in handy when my car got busted into.
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Making a backup presumes that you're keeping the original. If you sell the original, your duplicate is no longer a backup per se -- then it becomes an illegal copy.
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Right. I think, as long as we're being completely anal about what SPECIFICALLY the illegal act is (and not saying that's bad, it's an interesting discussion and I'm prepared to get anal right along with y'all :)), that it's better said the illegal act is either "not destroying your backup copy once the original has been voluntarily surrendered from your possession" (which covers Mark's case of the original being stolen), or "not transferring the backup copy to the new owner along with the original".
(Of course, given the RIAA's asinine stance on such things, I could totally see them thinking that Mark should destroy a backup if the original is stolen, but that's another rant. Viva la revolucion.)
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'114658\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 04:26 PM\']
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'114645\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 02:26 PM\']
It's the act of making a copy for yourself that's illegal. [/quote]
Is it? I thought making a backup was perfect legit...would have came in handy when my car got busted into.
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It's the act of making a copy that you intend to be your only copy that's the problem. See my second paragraph.
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Follow the money. If you make 500 copies of a Prince CD and keep them in your closet, the copyright police have no reason to bother you (however you might get a visit from men wearing white jackets carrying butterfly nets). If you sell those CDs for $5 each on ebay, at a flea market, out of the back of your van, etc., every $5 you collect takes $5 away from the people who stand to collect money through the normal sales channel (the record company, the artist, the retailer, etc.). It is one notch down from printing $10 bills on your color laser printer and going out and spending them.
when the Copyright Police raid your home, they'll see all these copies and they'll say, politely at first, "We assume these are your backup copies. May we see your originals, please?" Then, when you can't produce them, it's off to Copyright Prison with you.
I've seen busts of software pirates and polite is the last word one would use to describe them. Imagine a swarm of armed federal agents who are dressed to impress descending on a warehouse in an industrial park. I don't think they even knock first.
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Something like old "Concentration," shows, though, have no value, except for this one guy who supposedly paid $100, otherwise you would see NBC putting out DVDs or exploiting them on the air. So, how can one seek damages for something that is worthless?
Unless there is a desire to keep it from the public, for some reason.
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old "Concentration," shows, though, have no value
An NBC lawyer likely wouldn't agree with you.
NBC may feel that a $100 ebay sale of Concentration isn't worth a lawyer's time to deal with. If you burned all of your old "Later with Bob Costas" VHS airchecks onto CD, started mass producing and marketing them, I think you might expect to hear from NBC.
When you work for a big, multinational media conglomerate, you learn how anal retentive they are about their intellectual property rights.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'114666\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 04:56 PM\']
If you sell those CDs for $5 each on ebay, at a flea market, out of the back of your van, etc., every $5 you collect takes $5 away from the people who stand to collect money through the normal sales channel (the record company, the artist, the retailer, etc.).
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Don't forget the data provider(s). They need the money most of all!
--Mike
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Technically I agree with that, although you do see promo CDs and records on e-bay all the time.
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I have a couple rare Madonna promos i found at a thrift store......Warner Brothers pulled them from eBay. It wasn't illegal as far as they were concerned. But, they owned the copywrite and i couldn't sell them. BUT, they also didn't want them back. I could keep them. I just couldn't make money off their property. Ebay allows the individual owners to police the auctions, but that's really as far as they'll go =)
j
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[quote name=\'mctoyboy\' post=\'114688\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 05:28 PM\']
Ebay allows the individual owners to police the auctions, but that's really as far as they'll go =)
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Of course. You will NEVER see Ebay voluntarily step away from collecting an auction fee. They could give a rats ass about copyright, if it makes them money, too. It's when they are in a position to get threatened with litigation that they start caring.
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Just for the record, and not to stir up a hornet's nest, but the illegality of (re)selling "Promo -- Not For Resale" material is actually a little iffy from what I understand, especially if the seller is not the first recipient of the material. That is, just because it says "Not For Resale" on the package doesn't necessarily mean that that's the law.
On the reasonable hand, of course, selling such is still often A) a dumb thing to do, and B) enough to get eBay to close your auction after they hear from lawyers.
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how about this, taking a page from an old scalpers trick. I'm selling you this cheap watch I own, but to the high bidder I'm giving as a gift a tape of old game show episodes. Now I'm claiming this is just a private sale of a watch and giving you a tape, not selling the episodes. Kosher?
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[quote name=\'narzo\' post=\'114697\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 08:42 PM\']
how about this, taking a page from an old scalpers trick. I'm selling you this cheap watch I own, but to the high bidder I'm giving as a gift a tape of old game show episodes. Now I'm claiming this is just a private sale of a watch and giving you a tape, not selling the episodes. Kosher?
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Just as kosher as those who actually sell the tapes on Ebay, and charge for "time and packaging". Not kosher in my book, but whether its the law or not is another story.
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[quote name=\'narzo\' post=\'114697\' date=\'Mar 29 2006, 06:42 PM\']
how about this, taking a page from an old scalpers trick. I'm selling you this cheap watch I own, but to the high bidder I'm giving as a gift a tape of old game show episodes. Now I'm claiming this is just a private sale of a watch and giving you a tape, not selling the episodes. Kosher?
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By the letter of the law? I'd guess no. But you would have a very hard time finding someone to successfully prosecute it, and as a result Ebay will be only too happy to take your money.
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Um, giving out unauthorized copies is illegal whether or not money changes hands. There may be *more* laws that you're breaking by making a profit, but copying and distribution are plenty.
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I presume it is legal if you just sold the physical tape and tape case without disclosing the contents in your description. I saw many videotapes at rummage sales in the last year or so with who knows what on them.
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'114836\' date=\'Mar 30 2006, 08:54 PM\']
I presume it is legal if you just sold the physical tape and tape case without disclosing the contents in your description.
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Uh, no, there is no "ignorance" clause. If you're going to sell a blank tape and you can't be bothered to check what's on it, and you're worried about being 100% in compliance with the law, you'd better bulk it.
I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept.
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There has been a gray (grey?) area with regard to works in the public domain. From what I am led to believe, prior to March of 1989, a show had to have a copyright notice on screen, otherwise it would risk falling into public domain, and anyone who had a copy would be free to make more for profit or not. Any public domain experts here?
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Dude, I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but at its face that is just a ludicrous statement.
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There has been a gray (grey?) area with regard to works in the public domain. From what I am led to believe, prior to March of 1989, a show had to have a copyright notice on screen, otherwise it would risk falling into public domain, and anyone who had a copy would be free to make more for profit or not. Any public domain experts here?
There are some cheap DVDs of shows like Beverly Hillbillies and Andy Griffith on the market that are "public domain" episodes. Reportedly a couple dozen episodes of each of those shows (and others) have somehow fallen into the public domain. They also apparantly have different theme songs than we're used to, because those are still copyrighted.
Personally, I'm confused by the whole thing - I thought TV shows were bought, sold and copyrighted as a whole - how a few episodes could be public domain is beyond me. Maybe the copyright notice has something to do with it (?)
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Personally, I'm confused by the whole thing - I thought TV shows were bought, sold and copyrighted as a whole - how a few episodes could be public domain is beyond me.
I think the notion that certain episodes are in the public domain is an urban myth.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'114900\' date=\'Mar 31 2006, 02:25 PM\']
I think the notion that certain episodes are in the public domain is an urban myth.
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Especially since there isn't gonna be "just a few episodes" that did that....either the whole series is gonna, or it's not.
And since I'm guessing that if I tried to produce a television show that was a half-hour of Andy Taylor and Barney Fife jerkin' off on a dancing bear, I'd have lawyers knocking at my door tout suite, I'm gonna go with "not".
Personally, I'm with you, I think the people making this claim are speaking wholly ex rectum.
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To go back to an earlier question, correct me if needs be, but in my old DJ days, those record albums saying "Promo - not for resale" were copies I believe the companies set aside and paid no royalties to artists or publishers. The artists and publishers later shared in the money radio stations paid for ASCAP or BMI licensing fees. Everyone's willing to send them out gratis with the hopes the airplay will generate sales. So if one made a copy of a DJ sample, you've stiffed the company twice. The artists got nothing from it, and you didn't buy it.
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ex rectum
I think this could prove to be one of the most useful terms on the Internet.
if I tried to produce a television show that was a half-hour of Andy Taylor and Barney Fife jerkin' off on a dancing bear, I'd have lawyers knocking at my door tout suite
The bad taste police would beat them to your door, followed by men in white jackets with butterfly nets.
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[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'114904\' date=\'Mar 31 2006, 03:29 PM\']
ex rectum
I think this could prove to be one of the most useful terms on the Internet.
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I only wish I could lay claim to it's origin. I read it elsewhere, long ago. :)
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[quote name=\'clemon79\' post=\'114905\' date=\'Mar 31 2006, 06:30 PM\']
[quote name=\'chris319\' post=\'114904\' date=\'Mar 31 2006, 03:29 PM\']
ex rectum
I think this could prove to be one of the most useful terms on the Internet.
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I only wish I could lay claim to it's origin. I read it elsewhere, long ago. :)
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I'm not gonna use that term until somebody checks to see if it is under copyright. :)
Visit your local dollar store. You will find episodes of old shows put out by various companies. Among game shows, I have seen YBYL and IGAS on the shelves, so there are some that are being mass-marketed by companies other than the copyright holders. That's why I asked if anyone could shed some light on the subject. I'm not saying it's legal at this point, but you can also find them at stores the size of Wal-Mart as well, so they must have done some research to determine public domain status.
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[quote name=\'The Ol' Guy\' post=\'114903\' date=\'Mar 31 2006, 06:06 PM\']
To go back to an earlier question, correct me if needs be, but in my old DJ days, those record albums saying "Promo - not for resale" were copies I believe the companies set aside and paid no royalties to artists or publishers. The artists and publishers later shared in the money radio stations paid for ASCAP or BMI licensing fees. Everyone's willing to send them out gratis with the hopes the airplay will generate sales. So if one made a copy of a DJ sample, you've stiffed the company twice. The artists got nothing from it, and you didn't buy it.
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Promos are considered property of the record company in perpetuity. They could ask for it back at anytime, and allegedly, you would have to do just that. We get hundreds of them a week at work, and I don't think we've ever sent one back. However, we have now received the same Hispanic oriented DVD for the last five days straight.
--Mike
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Some of the record companies have changed hands or merged so many times that they probably don't know they lent the promo copies in the first place. What of a group like "The Beatles," do you surrender your promo copy to Capitol, Apple or Michael Jackson?
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[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'114957\' date=\'Apr 1 2006, 07:05 AM\']
Some of the record companies have changed hands or merged so many times that they probably don't know they lent the promo copies in the first place. What of a group like "The Beatles," do you surrender your promo copy to Capitol, Apple or Michael Jackson?
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Don't confuse song writing with record publishing.
Oh, they know, >60% of U.S. sales are controlled by 4 companies (Sony/BMG, EMI, Warner and Universal). I get a list every week of the changes.
Beatles are EMI.
--Mike
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Promos are considered property of the record company in perpetuity. They could ask for it back at anytime, and allegedly, you would have to do just that. We get hundreds of them a week at work, and I don't think we've ever sent one back.
As a frequent visitor to vinyl record shows, "white label promo copies" are fairly easy to come by - especially in the 45 rpm format. It's probably unlikely that record companies would be concerned about old vinyl records these days, but a few of the promo 45s are worth some money. Most are worth just what you'd pay for a copy of the commercial issue wherever you could find one.
There have been books put out on the value of promo records, and there is a big collector market for them. I've got a few hundred of them myself, but wouldn't try to sell them because I think they're neat to have. A few do feature edits or special mixes of songs that weren't available commercially.