The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: Jay Temple on October 07, 2008, 02:11:46 AM
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When I was watching GSN's documentary on Michael Larson, a thought occurred to me. Once they were onto him, was there some reason they couldn't stop tape and just rearrange some of the panels? Then they'd have a board that was exactly as "random" as before but with no advantage to any player.
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[quote name=\'Jay Temple\' post=\'199079\' date=\'Oct 6 2008, 11:11 PM\']
When I was watching GSN's documentary on Michael Larson, a thought occurred to me. Once they were onto him, was there some reason they couldn't stop tape and just rearrange some of the panels? Then they'd have a board that was exactly as "random" as before but with no advantage to any player.
[/quote]
Because what he did wasn't against the rules, and Compliances and Practices would be all over them like stink on shiat.
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As Chris said, there were no "violations" because he simply memorized what the pattern was & used it to his advantage racking up over $110K in cash & prizes. Of course they changed the pattern after Larson's big win, so we don't really know whether there was a solid case of any violations concerning his game back then.
I doubt if his 2 opponents would've sued him for what he did. There was no way to circumvent the situation. He just played the game his way & that was it.
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I think Jay was asking, if they COULD, could they have rearranged the slides and perhaps, change up the light pattern during a "stop tape"
One of the major problems with Larsen's streak was that they couldn't just stop at any point and "break for commercial". They usually did that when ALL players used up their spins. The audience was probably restless enough waiting for Larsen to stop spinning. If they decided to stop tape at some point, that would make the audience more restless. I also wonder if it would've been a S&P issue to rearrange the prizes and light patterns, as it might somehow be unfair to the other players. I think they let Michael keep going because they thought "this guy knows our board, and we need SOLID evidence to show that he was cheating" If they stopped tape, Michael would've KNOWN they were on to him, and maybe he would've changed his strategy.
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[quote name=\'whewfan\' post=\'199083\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:42 AM\']One of the major problems with Larsen's streak was that they couldn't just stop at any point and "break for commercial". [/quote]
No, but they could edit...which they did anyway.
[quote name=\'whewfan\' post=\'199083\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:42 AM\']The audience was probably restless enough waiting for Larsen to stop spinning. If they decided to stop tape at some point, that would make the audience more restless. [/quote]
The audience would be the last thing producers would worry about.
I don't see why they couldn't have rearranged some of the slides mid-game, as long as they could prove that the odds of hitting any one particular slide were the same.
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Perhaps because it could be construed that Larsen was getting so far ahead, it would appear as though they were changing the rules midstream. Then it could be an S&P violation. And since this was CBS we're talking about, they did not like any appearance of impropriety.
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[quote name=\'whewfan\' post=\'199083\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:42 AM\']
The audience was probably restless enough waiting for Larsen to stop spinning.[/quote]
The audience was probably having an orgasm over it. Personally, I wondered if he was going to make it to infinity.
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I could be imagining things, but didn't they have to stop tape once to switch to a new tape since they didn't anticipate going for so long?
I agree that the probability of a dead audience was low. I was in the audience for the Game Show Marathon episode of Press Your Luck -- when there were one or two spins left in that very close final round, they stopped tape to make sure Ricki knew what to say, and the audience was so into the game, they objected loudly. I can only imagine the energy in the audience during Larson's run.
As for switching the slides around, the problem is that they would still need one square to cycle through the $3,000; $4,000; and $5,000 + one spin spaces (because otherwise, where would Big Bucks go to?). And since at the time, the staff didn't know exactly how Larson was consistently hitting the spin spaces, there would have been the possibility in their minds that even if they moved those slides to, say, the third square, he might have been able to start hitting that square consistently. And, yeah, whether Standards and Practices would have allowed it anyway.
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[quote name=\'Don Howard\' post=\'199094\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 10:33 AM\']
[quote name=\'whewfan\' post=\'199083\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:42 AM\']
The audience was probably restless enough waiting for Larsen to stop spinning.[/quote]
The audience was probably having an orgasm over it. Personally, I wondered if he was going to make it to infinity.
[/quote]
MO MONEY, MO MONEY MO MONEY! WE WANT MO MONEY!
/I don't think Tomarken was, he was about to faint once Mike passed 40 grand.
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Tweaking the Big Bucks square would've probably raised a few eyebrows and been jerkier. But there might've been a partial solution along these lines that would have been slightly more feasible: Larson alternated between the $3K/$4K/$5K+ and $500+/$750+/$1000+ squares. While tampering with Big Bucks might've thrown some awkward glances the show's way, they probably could have tinkered the smaller square (maybe, say, swap out it and the square above it - or just replace $750+ with a Whammy)
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I was a contestant on epiosodes 9, 10, and 11 and had a friend who was a PhD, an instructor at UCLA and a Jeopardy! champ with me, sitting in the audience with his wife. Early on, he spotted the patterns and tried to communicate one of them to me after episode 10. He had it, but it was too complex for me to to get a handle on, and even if I could grasp the pattern I would have needed an opportunity to try to work out the timing - the show had not yet debuted on the air. I didn't use the information, but was fascinated to know that under the right circumstances it could have been a factor for someone with a different mindset than mine.
Now...
The way I heard it, nobody in the studio knew what to do. It was a weekend, and they were calling S&P supervisors and the CBS daytime programming chiefs (Brockman, Boden) in the era before cell phones. They did reach one of those two (name withheld) who told me that his first question was "is he cheating or did he receive any outside assistance?" The answer of course was "no" and that seemed to be the litmus test for stopping the game.
If anyone even considered changing squares, I know the production company would want permission from the network and from S&P, thus the phone calls. It's likely nobody would have wanted to single-handedly authorize it without a chance to talk it over with the other parties. Stopping tape for an hour or more to facilitate such a meeting or conference call would have been more expensive than the prize money they gave away.
But on Monday I know they quickly reversed the decision to not use a truly random generating mechanism!
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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do we know how long it took to tape the larsen game as opposed to normal?'
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[quote name=\'toetyper\' post=\'199125\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 02:15 PM\']
do we know how long it took to tape the larsen game as opposed to normal?'
[/quote]
This would be a good place to look, for a start. (http://\"http://gscentral.net/larsen.htm\")
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'199115\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 02:04 PM\']
But on Monday I know they quickly reversed the decision to not use a truly random generating mechanism!
Randy
tvrandywest.com
[/quote]
Thing is, Randy, they never went to a random generator, they only added more patterns. I'm still surprised that no one else ever got on the show and did what he did again; although I've come to understand that the contestant coordinators STRONGLY advised against trying it, there was no feasible way to stop them.
The other thing that strikes me is that the show ran 2 more years even after Larson. Did CBS truly believe in the show that much?
Tyshaun
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[quote name=\'tyshaun1\' post=\'199134\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 01:27 PM\']
[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'199115\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 02:04 PM\']
But on Monday I know they quickly reversed the decision to not use a truly random generating mechanism!
[/quote]
Thing is, Randy, they never went to a random generator, they only added more patterns. I'm still surprised that no one else ever got on the show and did what he did again; although I've come to understand that the contestant coordinators STRONGLY advised against trying it, there was no feasible way to stop them.
The other thing that strikes me is that the show ran 2 more years even after Larson. Did CBS truly believe in the show that much?
[/quote]
I forgot, yes, they only added more patterns. Any network "believes" in a show when and for as long as it gets ratings. In reality, the $100,000+ they gave Larsen busted their prize budget, but wasn't a huge sum in the context of the overall cost of production.
Randy
tvrandywest.com
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'199135\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 03:33 PM\']
I forgot, yes, they only added more patterns. Any network "believes" in a show when and for as long as it gets ratings. In reality, the $100,000+ they gave Larsen busted their prize budget, but wasn't a huge sum in the context of the overall cost of production.
[/quote]
Not only that, but it probably provided a bit of a ratings spike. I was a casual PYL viewer, preferring to watch $otC instead. Needless to say, I didn't watch $otC those two days (and bear in mind that those of me in Chicago saw Larsen's run one day later than almost everybody else).
Still regret I never saw your eps, Randy. I was in college at Indiana at the time, and in those years TV schedules were on Central Time in the summer and Eastern Time in the winter (so WISH-TV didn't start airing PYL until about six weeks in, when we set the clocks back). (By the time of the Larsen eps, I was home in Chicago for summer vacation.)
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[quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'199137\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 04:54 PM\']
[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'199135\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 03:33 PM\']
I forgot, yes, they only added more patterns. Any network "believes" in a show when and for as long as it gets ratings. In reality, the $100,000+ they gave Larsen busted their prize budget, but wasn't a huge sum in the context of the overall cost of production.
[/quote]
Not only that, but it probably provided a bit of a ratings spike. I was a casual PYL viewer, preferring to watch $otC instead. Needless to say, I didn't watch $otC those two days (and bear in mind that those of me in Chicago saw Larsen's run one day later than almost everybody else).[/quote]
Bear in mind that the only reason we knew to watch was because, in a strikingly unusual circumstance for a daytime game show of the early 1980s, the information was reported in advance of airing. And since Larsen probably didn't have a PR staff, the information had to be provided by people who ultimately decided that it would be good to possibly get a ratings bump for this remarkable event.
[quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'199137\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 04:54 PM\'](and bear in mind that those of me in Chicago... )[/quote]
Just wondering, how many of you are there?
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'199138\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 04:01 PM\']
Bear in mind that the only reason we knew to watch was because, in a strikingly unusual circumstance for a daytime game show of the early 1980s, the information was reported in advance of airing. And since Larsen probably didn't have a PR staff, the information had to be provided by people who ultimately decided that it would be good to possibly get a ratings bump for this remarkable event.
[/quote]
Yes, but I'm talking more about the people who after seeing the Larsen eps stuck around and watched in the days and weeks ahead (even though that wasn't really made clear from my post).
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'199138\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 04:01 PM\']
[quote name=\'SRIV94\' post=\'199137\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 04:54 PM\'](and bear in mind that those of me in Chicago... )[/quote]
Just wondering, how many of you are there?[/quote]
Too many, that's why I'm trying to lose a little girth.
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[quote name=\'PYLdude\' post=\'199127\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 02:26 PM\']
[quote name=\'toetyper\' post=\'199125\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 02:15 PM\']
do we know how long it took to tape the larsen game as opposed to normal?'
[/quote]
This would be a good place to look, for a start. (http://\"http://gscentral.net/larsen.htm\")
[/quote]Where does it say, in that article, how long the episode took to tape? I didn't see it; even after reading it twice.
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[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'199140\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:32 PM\']
Where does it say, in that article, how long the episode took to tape? I didn't see it; even after reading it twice.
[/quote]
Please, for the love of all things Holy, do not respond to this.
Tyshaun
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[quote name=\'tyshaun1\' post=\'199142\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:49 PM\']
[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'199140\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:32 PM\']
Where does it say, in that article, how long the episode took to tape? I didn't see it; even after reading it twice.
[/quote]
Please, for the love of all things Holy, do not respond to this.
[/quote]
Agreed...I speak for no one but myself, and consider myself a pretty tolerant person. That being said, even my patience has worn thin with the recent threadjacks due to pissing matches.
And I don't mean to sound high and mighty; just saying enough is enough, IMODO.
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[quote name=\'fostergray82\' post=\'199143\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 04:56 PM\']
[quote name=\'tyshaun1\' post=\'199142\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:49 PM\']
[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'199140\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 05:32 PM\']
Where does it say, in that article, how long the episode took to tape? I didn't see it; even after reading it twice.
[/quote]
Please, for the love of all things Holy, do not respond to this.
[/quote]
Agreed...I speak for no one but myself, and have no problems with disagreements. That being said, even my patience has worn thin with the threadjacks from pissing matches.[/quote]I would have made the same comment regardless of the poster. I can't stand when people snark, give an answer, and that answer fails to actually provide the question the OP was looking for in the first place.
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I guess I can't even be helpful without certain people bitching at me. Wow.
I directed toetyper to the article because it's a start at least to have some sort of implied time the episode took to tape. At the very least it took more than a half-hour. I didn't want to leave toetyper flapping in the wind, so I decided to direct him somewhere where he could find at least a little information, and maybe someone with more knowledge of the situation could expand upon that and in the process help others who are curious, myself included, find out the solution.
Nowhere near a snark. NOWHERE.
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Oh goddamn.
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[quote name=\'PYLdude\' post=\'199145\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 06:23 PM\']
I guess I can't even be helpful without certain people bitching at me. Wow.
I directed toetyper to the article because it's a start at least to have some sort of implied time the episode took to tape. At the very least it took more than a half-hour. I didn't want to leave toetyper flapping in the wind, so I decided to direct him somewhere where he could find at least a little information, and maybe someone with more knowledge of the situation could expand upon that and in the process help others who are curious, myself included, find out the solution.
Nowhere near a snark. NOWHERE
[/quote]
First if you had read the site you wouldcve known it didnt answer my question
second of course it took more than a half hour to tape IT TOOK AN HOUR TO AIR
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[quote name=\'toetyper\' post=\'199154\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 06:41 PM\']
[quote name=\'PYLdude\' post=\'199145\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 06:23 PM\']
I guess I can't even be helpful without certain people bitching at me. Wow.
I directed toetyper to the article because it's a start at least to have some sort of implied time the episode took to tape. At the very least it took more than a half-hour. I didn't want to leave toetyper flapping in the wind, so I decided to direct him somewhere where he could find at least a little information, and maybe someone with more knowledge of the situation could expand upon that and in the process help others who are curious, myself included, find out the solution.
Nowhere near a snark. NOWHERE
[/quote]
First if you had read the site you wouldcve known it didnt answer my question
second of course it took more than a half hour to tape IT TOOK AN HOUR TO AIR
[/quote]
Alright, fine. See if I try to help you again.
I read the site. I know the site. I know the page. I thought it would HELP. Apparently you're ungrateful for that, so I can't help you.
You're welcome, by the way.
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[quote name=\'PYLdude\' post=\'199155\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 07:51 PM\']
[quote name=\'toetyper\' post=\'199154\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 06:41 PM\']
[quote name=\'PYLdude\' post=\'199145\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 06:23 PM\']
I guess I can't even be helpful without certain people bitching at me. Wow.
I directed toetyper to the article because it's a start at least to have some sort of implied time the episode took to tape. At the very least it took more than a half-hour. I didn't want to leave toetyper flapping in the wind, so I decided to direct him somewhere where he could find at least a little information, and maybe someone with more knowledge of the situation could expand upon that and in the process help others who are curious, myself included, find out the solution.
Nowhere near a snark. NOWHERE
[/quote]
First if you had read the site you wouldcve known it didnt answer my question
second of course it took more than a half hour to tape IT TOOK AN HOUR TO AIR
[/quote]
Alright, fine. See if I try to help you again.
I read the site. I know the site. I know the page. I thought it would HELP. Apparently you're ungrateful for that, so I can't help you.
You're welcome, by the way.
[/quote]
if the site doesnt answer my question . how could itt help?
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[quote name=\'toetyper\' post=\'199161\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 07:15 PM\']
if the site doesnt answer my question . how could itt help?
[/quote]
It was a START. I made that pretty damn clear from the beginning.
Ungrateful. Really. But you're still welcome.
Next time, try asking a question that can be definitively answered one way or another.
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It took an hour and 27 minutes to tape. Now shaddap!!!!
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[quote name=\'TheLastResort\' post=\'199165\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 07:23 PM\']
It took an hour and 27 minutes to tape. Now shaddap!!!!
[/quote]
From someone who was curious himself, thank you.
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[quote name=\'TheLastResort\' post=\'199165\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 08:23 PM\']
It took an hour and 27 minutes to tape. Now shaddap!!!!
[/quote]
thank you
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I figured somebody would be bitching about the lack of a source for 1:27
/ah hell, let it go!
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[quote name=\'rwalker\' post=\'199176\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 09:07 PM\']
I figured somebody would be bitching about the lack of a source for 1:27[/quote]
Are you saying you doubt my sources??!
/OK, I pulled it out of my ass. But you have to admit, it stopped the bickering!
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[quote name=\'TheLastResort\' post=\'199192\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 09:59 PM\']
[quote name=\'rwalker\' post=\'199176\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 09:07 PM\']
I figured somebody would be bitching about the lack of a source for 1:27[/quote]
Are you saying you doubt my sources??!
/OK, I pulled it out of my ass. But you have to admit, it stopped the bickering!
[/quote]
Yes it did. And you did a good job
/Whammies are now brown?
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[quote name=\'PYLdude\' post=\'199162\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 07:17 PM\']
Next time, try asking a question that can be definitively answered one way or another.
[/quote]
I can think of no better rule for a discussion forum than only asking questions that have definitive answers.
/Point taken on the ungratefulness, though.
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[quote name=\'TheLastResort\' post=\'199192\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 09:59 PM\']
/OK, I pulled it out of my ass. But you have to admit, it stopped the bickering![/quote]
Made me laugh.
Seriously, is this that hard to estimate? I don't know how jaded we've gotten thanks to three-hour DoND marathons, but I have to guess that like most 80s game shows, PYL was shot in more or less real time. The whole point of all the stories was that they DIDN'T stop the game while he was in the middle of his streak. The event played out over two half-hours, but a lot of that was explanatory filler and commercial breaks inserted where the live action continued. So the whole thing probably took 45 to 50 minutes to happen, and the only serious "down time" might have been after the game ended and they had to figure out what to do with WAY more than a half-hour of footage. (The lengthy post-game interview seems to be a pretty clear indication they decided on the spot to create two half-hours.)
Am I missing anything?
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'199197\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 07:47 PM\'] (The lengthy post-game interview seems to be a pretty clear indication they decided on the spot to create two half-hours.)
[/quote]
At one point in the post-game interview, Peter says something to the affect of "We're so far over the time, so it doesn't even matter," for what that's worth.
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[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'199199\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 10:53 PM\']
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'199197\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 07:47 PM\'] (The lengthy post-game interview seems to be a pretty clear indication they decided on the spot to create two half-hours.)
[/quote]
At one point in the post-game interview, Peter says something to the affect of "We're so far over the time, so it doesn't even matter," for what that's worth.[/quote]
Good point. That would suggest the possibility that they didn't even have that much of a stop-down after the game portion, going with business as usual (or as close to it as possible) and figuring they'd sort it out later.
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yay for logical thinking
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[quote name=\'tvrandywest\' post=\'199135\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 01:33 PM\']In reality, the $100,000+ they gave Larsen busted their prize budget, but wasn't a huge sum in the context of the overall cost of production.[/quote]I realize that the prize budget is a number that the production company has to work with, but how then do you come up with the values of the windows in the game beforehand? Someone could win with $1,000 or $40,000, and there's no way to know beforehand? Did the executives play several dozen games before going to air?
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'199197\' date=\'Oct 7 2008, 10:47 PM\']
I don't know how jaded we've gotten thanks to three-hour DoND marathons, but I have to guess that like most 80s game shows, PYL was shot in more or less real time. [/quote]
That was the case for the three episodes I saw taped in August, 1985... done to time, save for board malfunctions (on one episode, two of the projectors blew their bulbs).
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[quote name=\'TLEberle\' post=\'199359\' date=\'Oct 10 2008, 12:00 AM\']I realize that the prize budget is a number that the production company has to work with, but how then do you come up with the values of the windows in the game beforehand? Someone could win with $1,000 or $40,000, and there's no way to know beforehand? Did the executives play several dozen games before going to air?[/quote]
If the executives were smart or fortunate, they might have had someone (someone much like the person whose response is just above mine!) whose job it was to figure out mathematically what the average win might be, spread out over many, many games of course. And who knows, maybe they did just spend a lot of time playing and seeing what developed. Once they started airing, surely somebody was keeping track of the real numbers, and possibly making adjustments to the game board as needed.
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'199375\' date=\'Oct 10 2008, 08:31 AM\']
If the executives were smart or fortunate, they might have had someone (someone much like the person whose response is just above mine!) whose job it was to figure out mathematically what the average win might be, spread out over many, many games of course. And who knows, maybe they did just spend a lot of time playing and seeing what developed. Once they started airing, surely somebody was keeping track of the real numbers, and possibly making adjustments to the game board as needed.
[/quote]
They can also adjust the questons as needed, to lower the potential number of spins taken.
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[quote name=\'Kevin Prather\' post=\'199386\' date=\'Oct 10 2008, 01:29 PM\']
They can also adjust the questons as needed, to lower the potential number of spins taken.
[/quote]
Didn't they already do that the other way? ISTR if spin totals were really low entering the third or fourth question, a light would go on at Tomarken's podium indicating that he might want to ask a different particular question.
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Didn't they already do that the other way? ISTR if spin totals were really low entering the third or fourth question, a light would go on at Tomarken's podium indicating that he might want to ask a different particular question.
Yes, and in many episodes you can actually see the light blinking when they take the right wide shot of Peter and the contestants.
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[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'199375\' date=\'Oct 10 2008, 10:31 AM\']
Once they started airing, surely somebody was keeping track of the real numbers, and possibly making adjustments to the game board as needed.
[/quote]
This must be why they had a $470 space...they calculated the average win would be $0.02 too high if there was a $500 there instead.
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[quote name=\'Mr. Armadillo\' post=\'199396\' date=\'Oct 10 2008, 04:48 PM\']
[quote name=\'Matt Ottinger\' post=\'199375\' date=\'Oct 10 2008, 10:31 AM\']
Once they started airing, surely somebody was keeping track of the real numbers, and possibly making adjustments to the game board as needed.[/quote]This must be why they had a $470 space...they calculated the average win would be $0.02 too high if there was a $500 there instead.[/quote]
See, there you go. Another lingering mystery explained!