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Arrrrrrrsssseeeeniiiiooo Haaaaalllll,

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Matt Ottinger:
[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'May 6 2004, 02:08 PM\'] You mean the participants in a "contest" aren't affected by one another? I don't understand. If somebody else does better than me in a contest, I lose. If everybody else does worse than me, I win. My outcome is very directly affected by what the other participants do. This doesn't look like any real distinction between a "contest" and a "game". In fact, it looks like a hair that failed to get split. [/quote]
 But they don't have the ability, for example, to make you sing worse because they sing better.  Their actions do not have a bearing on your actions.  Except in a psychological way, but that's really just you doing it to yourself when you think about it.  Everybody just does whatever it is they do independently of one another, and in the end somebody wins.

In a similar sense, there are a lot of people who don't consider golf to be a sport because there's no defense.  True, there's no judging, there is a specific, identifiable way of seeing which person did better.  Still, I can't block your shot or impede you from doing what you do, I can only try to do better than you at around the same period of time.  That would also appear to be true of most track events.

I definitely see that distinction, and if that's how the dictionary separates a game and a contest, so be it.  Still, in a thesaurus, contest and game both appear alongside "competition".  Like Casey says, debating the nuances and the hair splitting is fun as long as we all stay friendly about it.

tyshaun1:
[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'May 6 2004, 01:30 PM\']
--- Quote ---You are assuming that just because your performance in a contest is better than someone else's, you'll automatically win. This has consistently been proven to be not the case. Whereas in a game, if you don't do better than your opponent, you lose.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry, but this is really losing me. Are you saying that Jeopardy ISN'T a contest between the three, er, CONTESTants? What else is it then? Again, I think the distinction you're trying to make between a "contest" and a "game" is simply unjustified by the common usage of the two words. I would use both words to describe Jeopardy, and I think most people would agree with me.

This is clearly territory where exact proofs are impossible. But it's still fun to shoot the breeze. [/quote]
 I wasn't talking about Jeopardy!, I referenced American Idol and Star Search in my post; you're dragging Jeopardy! into it. What I'm saying is that any competition that is decided by a 3rd party is defined as a contest, and one that is decided directly by the players is a game. SS and AI are decided by judges (voters), not necessarily by the participants, and J! is decided by the direct performance of the players.

I will admit, this argument could go on for days, though, so I will just let this topic die (for now ;)).

tyshaun1:
[quote name=\'JacksonBrowne1980\' date=\'May 6 2004, 01:47 PM\'] star search was a cool show in the 1980s; i dunno the specific date in 1983 it aired on, but it did premiere in 1983. [/quote]
 And once again, Erik comes along and makes this seem irrelevant doesn't he? ;)

Tyshaun

CaseyAbell:

--- Quote ---In a similar sense, there are a lot of people who don't consider golf to be a sport because there's no defense.
--- End quote ---
This would cut out a fair number of what most people would consider sports. You mention track and field, but we could also toss out figure skating, speed skating, rowing, skiing, bobsled and luge, swimming and diving, gymnastics, weightlifting, bicycling, marksmanship and archery, equestrian events...man, we're starting to get rid of a lot of the Olympics. How will NBC fill all that time?

This doesn't have anything to do with game shows. I'm just maundering along.


--- Quote ---I wasn't talking about Jeopardy!, I referenced American Idol and Star Search in my post; you're dragging Jeopardy! into it.
--- End quote ---
The only reason I'm using Jeopardy is that it's a classic example of what most people would call a game show. And I think there is a difference between such a show and a talent contest. I just don't think it has anything to do with an at best miniscule (and to me invisible) distinction between a "contest" and a "game."

In fact, I've lost track of why you wanted to draw the distinction in the first place. Maybe one of these days I'll go back over the thread and see why we got side-tracked. For now, I'll agree to give the whole subject a rest.

Matt Ottinger:
[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'May 6 2004, 03:41 PM\']
--- Quote ---In a similar sense, there are a lot of people who don't consider golf to be a sport because there's no defense.
--- End quote ---
This would cut out a fair number of what most people would consider sports. You mention track and field, but we could also toss out figure skating, speed skating, rowing, skiing, bobsled and luge, swimming and diving, gymnastics, weightlifting, bicycling, marksmanship and archery, equestrian events... [/quote]
 Uh...yeah, precisely.  With the possible exception of bicycling which, like auto racing, has a lot strategic components with respect to other competitors, these would all be examples of contests rather than games.  And despite your protestations, I believe you do see the distinction or else you would have included other Olympic events (water polo, soccer, even curling) that we would consider "games".

Also, you mentioned common usage, and I think there is a relevant point here.  In sports, you tend to think of a baseball "game" and a football "game" and a basketball "game".  But you don't as naturally think of a figure skating "game" or an archery "game".  You don't even think of a golf competition as a "game", although that's usually the term people give to their own individual skill level ("My golf game has improved ever since I stopped watching GSN.")  People tend to naturally use some word other than game (meet, event, race, competition, match) to describe events like that.

Naturally, there would be individual exceptions.  A boxing "match", for example, is judged, but the two competitors definitely have an influence on each other's performance and the match can be won on something other than a judgment. And again, we're all agreed that this is preopostrously narrow hair splitting. Still, it's an interesting distinction that's a little more clear-cut than you seem willing to admit to.

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