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Arrrrrrrsssseeeeniiiiooo Haaaaalllll,

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clemon79:
[quote name=\'JMFabiano\' date=\'May 5 2004, 03:07 PM\'] Do I seem less crazy after saying so? [/quote]
 The thing that makes people seem crazy here is that most people keep wishing and wishing and wishing and wishing and wishing and wishing and wishing and wishing and wishing and wishing like it will actually make it so if they keep it up, instead of eventually realizing that it's Not Gonna Happen and getting on with their life. If they'd say "I wish it were this way, but I know it's not and won't be anytime soon", they wouldn't get nearly as much grief.

inturnaround:
[quote name=\'CaseyAbell\' date=\'May 4 2004, 02:55 PM\']
--- Quote ---Hands up, anyone who thinks Star Search in any way encompasses the concept of a "game".
--- End quote ---
My hand's up. Talent contests aren't my cuppa, but they sound pretty game-like to me. Contestants try to win a competition. That's not a game? What is it, a seminar? [/quote]
 Yeah, my hand's up too. It's not a "game show", but it most certainly is a game.

But I'm not surprised. 'Tis not a complete day around here until Chris Lemon serves up his traditional snarky post o' the day.

GS Warehouse:
[quote name=\'inturnaround\' date=\'May 6 2004, 01:09 AM\'] Yeah, my hand's up too. It's not a "game show", but it most certainly is a game.

But I'm not surprised. 'Tis not a complete day around here until Chris Lemon serves up his traditional snarky post o' the day. [/quote]
I'm not as good at snarky, but I'll give it a try...

Yer high. :-)

We've established that the Olympics, Miss USA pageant, general elections, and Star Search all have game-type elements: competitions with tangible rewards.  That's what most of us think of as the definition of a game show, but now that I think about it, in general, that is actually the definition of a contest.  And the reason the line between reality competitions and traditional game shows has become more and more blurred is because they are both subsets of contests.  Star Search, American Idol, Survivor, Big Brother, and even The Bachelor are all contests, but that doesn't make them game shows.

clemon79:
[quote name=\'GS Warehouse\' date=\'May 6 2004, 07:59 AM\'] We've established that the Olympics, Miss USA pageant, general elections, and Star Search all have game-type elements: competitions with tangible rewards.  That's what most of us think of as the definition of a game show, but now that I think about it, in general, that is actually the definition of a contest. [/quote]
 Exactly!

Coughlin's shot notwithstanding (and I bet he's as excited about killfiles coming as I am, to which I say: Good), I never suggested that Star Search was a "game show" in the sense that we know a "game show", and to do so would be silly since that is no longer GSN's focus. However, GSN's focus DOES allege to be "games" as a whole, and I'm standing firmly by my claim that SS isn't even a "game", much less a "game show". Why? A game (at least, a good one) is something you enjoy participating in for its own sake.

"But they love what they do, you can hear it in their dulcet tones!" you might say. And you'd be an idiot. I love what I do for a living. Doesn't mean it becomes a game when the guy down the hall tries to do my job better than I do.

Or, put it this way: How many of those people on SS would participate in the competition if there was NOTHING to show for it. No prize money, no publicity, no street buzz, no national exposure. No career advancement whatsoever. They all show up in an empty warehouse with nobody but them and the judges (oh, hell, throw Arsenio in there, too, it's not like HE has anything better to do), and someone walks out declared one of Life's Winners, and nothing else. I promise you that would be one empty warehouse.

And yet, at some time tomorrow night I bet you I will sit down to play Password for the same stakes. That's the difference between a game and a contest, in my eyes.

CaseyAbell:
This thread is running off into semantics, but it's also getting kinda fun. We're bogged down in the difference between a "game" and a "game show."

Next week: how many angels can dance on Alex Trebek's chin?

Talent contests are obviously games. In fact, the online Merriam-Webster definition of "game" uses the word "contest" three times in the definition. Once you concede that Star Search is a contest, you've pretty much conceded that it's at least something of a game. As, in fact, are beauty pageants, sports events, and elections.

But "game show" means something else to most people. It's what happens on Wheel of Fortune. It's pretty much defined by actual examples. As Potter Stewart would certainly say, people know them when they see them.

When I tried to nail down the differences between talent contests and what most people call a "game show," I was a little surprised by how hard it was. The more I thought about it, the more game shows looked like talent contests themselves.

Jeopardy tests the talents of quick memory and wide knowledge. Lingo tests the talents of language ability and pattern-recognition. Wheel of Fortune tests the talent of hugging Pat when you win.

In fact, many of the talents tested on game shows are much more useful to most people than the ability to warble a tune or dance a fancy step. After all, the ability to hug Pat always comes in handy.

The biggest difference I hit on was the judging, which is necessarily so much more subjective in talent contests. The best-designed game shows try to limit subjectivity in judging to a minimum. It can't be eliminated entirely, of course, but talent contests don't even try, nor should they. Controversy over the winners helps talent contests generate interest. Ask the guys at American Idol.

Oh well, it's a fun bull-session topic.

EDIT: Just saw Chris' interesting idea that a game must involve something you enjoy participating in for its own sake. Sorry, but this idea doesn't convince me at all that Star Search isn't a game.

Personal example: my wife's a classical soprano and she LOVES singing, even in an empty warehouse, even if there's no prize money, publicity, street buzz or national exposure involved. In fact, of course, these things are never involved for my wife, unless you count a page on my web site as national exposure. I'm sure she loves using her considerable talent every bit as much as the trivia mavens on Jeopardy love displaying their knowledge.

So I don't see this distinction between the warblers (and others) on Star Search and the question-phrasers on Jeopardy as being real - at least in many, many individual cases. Truth to tell, it looks more like a similarity between talent contests and game shows than a difference.

Some folks might go on Jeopardy for the sheer joy of showing off their knowledge, just as some folks might go on Star Search for the sheer joy of  cracking jokes or dancing silly dances.

Other contestants on either show might be more interested in the, uh, more tangible rewards. So basing a supposed difference between talent contests and game shows on an alleged difference in the motivations of the contestants doesn't hold water with me. I'd guess the motivations - probably a mix for most contestants on both types of shows - are pretty similar.

But hey, we're talking about things where exact proof is impossible.

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