NBC tape question

[Ian Wallis]

Concerning this issue on tape preservation (or the lack thereof in this case), did the other forms of television such as sitcoms, news reels, sports, and soap operas get the same fate as the game shows, being erased and recorded over?

Somewhat.  It's assumed most daytime programming from the '60s is gone.  There's likely not much in the way of soaps from that time period that are still around.  Part of the reason could be that many of the soaps were done live until the early '70s.  I believe some All My Children episodes from early in its run exist only in black and white (all episodes were originally produced in color).  I think its been mentioned before that most of the early years of ABC's Ryan's Hope, which debuted in 1975, don't exist.

Also, the first two Super Bowls don't seem to exist, as do many early seasons of the Tonight Show, which has already been pointed out.

[Jimmy Owen]

One thing that Carson, Y&R and Days have in common is that Columbia (now Sony) had distribution rights so maybe Sony put them in the salt mine.  


Even if the Super Bowl telecasts did exist, I have a feeling the NFL wouldn't let anyone see them, preferring you watch the majestic "larger-than-life" NFL Films version.

Quite a few of the old Groucho "You Bet Your Life" shows are out there and on DVD.  I think "People are Funny" also exists on film, though I doubt anyone wants to see them.
 
The way I see it, the whole situation with the networks is akin to a friend asking you to tape a show for him on your tape.  After he has watched it, given it back and shows no interest in asking you to keep it for him, does he have any sayso on whether you reuse the tape?

[Matt Ottinger]

[quote name=\'14gameshows\' post=\'117032\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 08:56 AM\']Concerning this issue on tape preservation (or the lack thereof in this case), did the other forms of television such as sitcoms, news reels, sports, and soap operas get the same fate as the game shows?[/quote]
Just to be clear, you lumped "sitcoms" into this list, and typically they're a different animal than the rest.  Scripted shows like sitcoms and dramas tended to be saved by their producers for their rerun potential.  For most other forms, like games, soaps, talk, and yes, news and even (to a startling degree) sports, few people saw much need to keep them, especially considering the difficulty and expense involved.

I'm beginning to believe that the "great purge" story is probably based in some amount of fact, but has become exaggerated over time.  On the one hand, it wouldn't surprise me that somebody saw a lot of stuff being saved, failed to see the value in it, and arranged to get rid of it.  But on the other hand, a lot of stuff probably wasn't being saved to begin with.  A Three on a Match contestant once told me that he spoke to Bob Stewart only a few weeks after his show had aired, and the show had already been erased.  As Ian said, back when the daytime shows were live, it would have been absurdly and prohibitively expensive to try and maintain any sort of archive.

The good news is that even after all these years, "new" stuff is being unearthed every day.

[NickintheATL]

[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'117033\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 09:04 AM\']
I think its been mentioned before that most of the early years of ABC's Ryan's Hope, which debuted in 1975, don't exist.
[/quote]

This simply isn't true, as Soapnet has reran the show from the beginning twice in the last few years.

[dzinkin]

[quote name=\'NicholasM79\' post=\'117042\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 11:29 AM\']
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'117033\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 09:04 AM\']
I think its been mentioned before that most of the early years of ABC's Ryan's Hope, which debuted in 1975, don't exist.
[/quote]
This simply isn't true, as Soapnet has reran the show from the beginning twice in the last few years.
[/quote]
Correct -- SoapNet execs have said that certain episodes couldn't be found (they even promised to post the scripts of the missing shows on the network's web site), but "most of the early years" is way off.

[Ian Wallis]

Correct -- SoapNet execs have said that certain episodes couldn't be found (they even promised to post the scripts of the missing shows on the network's web site), but "most of the early years" is way off.

Hmmm...interesting.  Maybe the networks made a better effort to save their soap operas once they stopped airing live, than they did their game shows.  I find it curious that Ryan's Hope is still around, yet Show-Offs, Split Second and Password from the same time frame seem forever lost.

[uncamark]

[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' post=\'117035\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 08:55 AM\']
One thing that Carson, Y&R and Days have in common is that Columbia (now Sony) had distribution rights so maybe Sony put them in the salt mine.  

Quite a few of the old Groucho "You Bet Your Life" shows are out there and on DVD.  I think "People are Funny" also exists on film, though I doubt anyone wants to see them.[/quote]

Sony only has distribution rights to the 130 "Carson's Comedy Classics" repackages and some of the prime time anniversary shows.  Everything else is controlled by Carson Productions.

There is one verified instance of mass destruction--NBC did purposely burn down a warehouse in New Jersey where a lot of back films and kinescopes were kept in 1972.  John Guedel heard that it was going to happen, bought back the rights to the "Best of Groucho" package and personally went to the warehouse a few days before the fire with Groucho's companion Erin Fleming to take the masters out themselves.  (Whether he also retrieved "People Are Funny," I don't know.)  A year or so later, he asked KTLA GM John Reynolds to air the shows late on Sunday nights as a favor to him and Groucho and charged him only a nominal fee.  When it became a surprise hit in LA, "The Best of Groucho" returned to national syndication.

(I have a backup in that on one of the Steve Allen repackages that COM used to air, he mentioned that the only extant clips of the Allen "Tonight Show" are from an episode of his Sunday night variety show that did a clip show of "Tonight" and that the rest were destroyed in the NBC warehouse fire.)

And I have the feeling there are holes in "YBYL" before 1953, since the "Best of Groucho" package only covers September 1953 on (perhaps to avoid using Jerry Fielding's music cues--Jack Meakin took over as bandleader at that point).

[Jimmy Owen]

[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' post=\'117046\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 12:32 PM\']

Correct -- SoapNet execs have said that certain episodes couldn't be found (they even promised to post the scripts of the missing shows on the network's web site), but "most of the early years" is way off.

Hmmm...interesting.  Maybe the networks made a better effort to save their soap operas once they stopped airing live, than they did their game shows.  I find it curious that Ryan's Hope is still around, yet Show-Offs, Split Second and Password from the same time frame seem forever lost.
[/quote]

One difference might be that ABC had an ownership stake in their soaps (save P&G's "EON") but had no further exploitation rights to the game shows that they aired.  Procter and Gamble might have a lot of their old sudsers in their archives.

  What sets game show fans and soap fans apart is the average soap fan has no interest in seeing old episodes of their favorite soaps.  So even if Roy Thinnes' last appearance on General Hospital in 1966 is missing, who cares?

[14gameshows]

just when you think you've heard it all, you don't....NBC purposely burning down a warehouse full of old tapes and kinescopes.  

Nowadays when a series is taken off of a network, does the tapes go immediatly back to the series creator/distributor or do they stay with the network until the creator/distributor puts in a request to have the property?

Interesting thread.

[Jimmy Owen]

I don't think Mark said anything about tapes being burned, just film and kinescopes.  Mark: Was it done to extract the silver content from the films for resale, or what was the reason?

[14gameshows]

I would think that there would be a great rerun value in Soap Operas just like with game shows.  Hmm.
I would also think that old soap fans would want to see the original cast member who protrated Jill Foster Abbott compared to the current cast member on Y&R.


ObGameshow: The cast members of Y&R have been on special event weeks of Family Feud.

[pyl85]

Was it done to extract the silver content from the films for resale, or what was the reason?

It was done for the insurance money.
[ducks]

[Dbacksfan12]

[quote name=\'pyl85\' post=\'117073\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 04:13 PM\']
It was done for the insurance money.
[/quote]
Umm, yeah.

The good news is that even after all these years, "new" stuff is being unearthed every day.

Just asking...what was the last "new" gameshow that was unearthed?  Was it Marshall's Hollywood Squares? (As a note, I can't stand it when people say "Marshall's H²").

[DoorNumberFour]

As far as sitcoms go...

"Mr. Peepers" with Wally Cox is gone.

[zachhoran]

[quote name=\'Modor\' post=\'117081\' date=\'Apr 26 2006, 07:25 PM\']

The good news is that even after all these years, "new" stuff is being unearthed every day.

Just asking...what was the last "new" gameshow that was unearthed?  Was it Marshall's Hollywood Squares? (As a note, I can't stand it when people say "Marshall's H²").
[/quote]

It was known beforehand the syndicated episodes of Marshall HS existed, as was reported years ago on ATGS. The NBC primetime episodes from 1968 were the really long-lost shows no one was expecting to see.