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The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: 14gameshows on December 16, 2004, 09:59:38 AM

Title: Password II
Post by: 14gameshows on December 16, 2004, 09:59:38 AM
How many on the board have ever seen the second version of Password which ran from 71-75 on the Alphabet Network? I've seen the rules to this game and it sounds very confusing.  Was this show self-contained or did it straddle to the next day?  

Also what is this theory about ABC erasing the Password tapes for the recording of Family Feud?  Were video tapes too expensive back then?  Did G-T think it wasn't worth saving, or ABC?  Was it by accident?  I think it's strange that we hear about game shows on NBC and ABC erased but other shows (i.e. variety, soaps, dramas, sitcoms, etc.) remain intact for some reason. Why is that?  

I will say on a side note that CBS looks to be the only network that valued their programming, look at network version of TJW, all thought it was lost until a staffer at WCBS stumbled across the masters in the basement.  First of all, why would those masters be at WCBS and not KCBS in LA?  Also wasn't Spin-Off w/ Jim Lange recently found too?

Thanks for the feedback any help from those in the biz may know the answers to this in full detail or even those who have connections may know what's up because I would like to know.

one4gameshows
Title: Password II
Post by: zachhoran on December 16, 2004, 10:11:08 AM
[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Dec 16 2004, 09:59 AM\']How many on the board have ever seen the second version of Password which ran from 71-75 on the Alphabet Network? I've seen the rules to this game and it sounds very confusing.  Was this show self-contained or did it straddle to the next day? 



I will say on a side note that CBS looks to be the only network that valued their programming, look at network version of TJW, all thought it was lost until a staffer at WCBS stumbled across the masters in the basement.  First of all, why would those masters be at WCBS and not KCBS in LA?  Also wasn't Spin-Off w/ Jim Lange recently found too?

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ABC Password did straddle when played with civilians, I don't think the ALl-stars format did.

Spin off was located in 2000 when WCBS did its basement cleaning which located most episodes of CBS Joker.
Title: Password II
Post by: cmjb13 on December 16, 2004, 10:27:46 AM
[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Dec 16 2004, 10:11 AM\']Spin off was located in 2000 when WCBS did its basement cleaning which located most episodes of CBS Joker.
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That's a damn big basement.
Title: Password II
Post by: Matt Ottinger on December 16, 2004, 10:49:01 AM
[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Dec 16 2004, 10:59 AM\']How many on the board have ever seen the second version of Password which ran from 71-75 on the Alphabet Network? I've seen the rules to this game and it sounds very confusing.  Was this show self-contained or did it straddle to the next day? 

Also what is this theory about ABC erasing the Password tapes for the recording of Family Feud?  Were video tapes too expensive back then?  Did G-T think it wasn't worth saving, or ABC?  Was it by accident?  I think it's strange that we hear about game shows on NBC and ABC erased but other shows (i.e. variety, soaps, dramas, sitcoms, etc.) remain intact for some reason. Why is that? [/quote]
If you're confused by Password rules from the 70s, you're probably reading the rules for either Password All-Stars or the brief civilian version that followed it for a few months in 1975.  The ABC version of Password that ran from 1971 to late 1974 was pretty straightforward.  And yes, many of us have seen it.

I'd never heard that ABC specifically took Password tapes and used them specifically for Family Feud, but in a general sense, yes, tape was very expensive (and very large) and few people saw any long-term value in keeping a lot of programming, especially daytime and late-night shows.  

Finally, you are wrong to think that game shows were the only type of programming that was mishandled.  Tons of stuff from the early decades of television are lost forever.  The reason WE hear about game shows being destroyed is that WE are game show fans.  I'm sure people who are interested in old soap operas, for example, have similar tales of woe.
Title: Password II
Post by: Ian Wallis on December 16, 2004, 11:05:30 AM
Just adding to what Matt said, some the programming we know about that's been "lost" includes the first two Super Bowls, many early years of "Tonight Show", many daytime soaps/games, and many live productions from the '50s.

One show from the '50s that was thought "lost" was "Your Show of Shows".  If I've got the story right, Milton Berle was so upset he was going to sue, then the kinescopes were mysteriously "found".

It's a shame that so much from television's "golden age", and to some respect the "silver age" is gone forever, but who knew what the future would bring?

As for ABC "Password", I remember watching it every day when I came home for lunch.  I remember when Allen seemed excited about the change to "Password All Stars" and the new set.  It's too bad there isn't an episode from the '71-74 version available.  It's nice to have the '60s shows via GSN, but the early '70s version is the first one I remember.
Title: Password II
Post by: Jimmy Owen on December 16, 2004, 11:33:13 AM
One thing that works in favor of any primetime programming still existing as well as the soaps is that whomever owned them wanted to keep them.  I would guess that Procter and Gamble probably has copies of everything they made and because they actually own the tapes, the ABC-owned soaps  (AMC, OLTL, GH) would stand a better chance to still exist.  Old game show tapes are not owned by the networks.  It would be up to G-T, H-Q and Bob Stewart to make sure they are kept.  It's sorta like borrowing a tape from a friend and when you try to give it back, they say "just keep it."  What would you do with a tape you'd never watch again and the original owner doesn't want it?  I'd tape over it, myself.
Title: Password II
Post by: 14gameshows on December 16, 2004, 03:00:33 PM
with that in mind, do you think that G-T maybe didn't see a value in Password II?  I would doubt that but you never know.  I thought of maybe the clearance issues with the  celebrities would be too much of a hassle and somehow those episodes are long gone.  But IMO, I think somewhere in a vault somewhere, someone has the masters to Password II, that's my theory.  I'm basing these answers from the fact that the Production company owns the tapes and not the network.  But then that raises the question of the "Big Erasure of 78" over on W. Alameda Avenue in Burbank, what all was erased.  Certainly it wasn't Hollywood Squares...and for years many thought it was erased but it was fully intact in some studio vault on the other side of town.  Imagine that.  Also IIRC, episodes of Dark Shadows (a big cult favorite, which was to be lost too, was found there as well)
Title: Password II
Post by: Matt Ottinger on December 16, 2004, 03:18:07 PM
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 16 2004, 12:05 PM\']One show from the '50s that was thought "lost" was "Your Show of Shows".  If I've got the story right, Milton Berle was so upset he was going to sue, then the kinescopes were mysteriously "found".[/quote]
Right story, wrong show.  Uncle Miltie would only be intereted in Your Show of Shows to see what his rival Sid Caesar was up to.  It was Texaco Star Theatre than Berle hosted, and over which he threatened legal action with NBC.
Title: Password II
Post by: Robair on December 16, 2004, 05:18:54 PM
[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Dec 16 2004, 10:11 AM\']ABC Password did straddle when played with civilians, I don't think the ALl-stars format did.
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Yes it did. The six celebrities played Monday through Thursday games (elimination buzz-ins, the "Big Game" and 20-20 Password, and when time expired on Thursday the four top players played Round Robin Classic Password with the 20-20 endgame on Friday to determine who would go on to the finals week.
Title: Password II
Post by: Jimmy Owen on December 16, 2004, 06:31:52 PM
For the record, I greatly enjoyed PAS.  I first saw it during school vacation at Xmas 1974.  The same glorious week TBS and MM premiered.  Despite my having the measles that week, it was a great week of watching solid game shows from 10a-4:30p and choosing between the 18 great shows the networks offered.
Title: Password II
Post by: calliaume on December 16, 2004, 09:29:42 PM
[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Dec 16 2004, 06:31 PM\']For the record, I greatly enjoyed PAS.  I first saw it during school vacation at Xmas 1974.  The same glorious week TBS and MM premiered.  Despite my having the measles that week, it was a great week of watching solid game shows from 10a-4:30p and choosing between the 18 great shows the networks offered.
[/quote]
I only got to watch a few episodes, and while the set looked cool and the theme rocked, the actual game play was confusing, and to be honest, not thrilling.  Not surprisingly, there weren't really that many "all-stars" available to play, so that's how we wound up watching such celebs as Wilt Chamberlain and Ruta Lee have a go at it.
Title: Password II
Post by: Craig Karlberg on December 17, 2004, 04:59:36 AM
I remember watching Password II every chance I could.  The orange set was alkright, but the synrthesized theme was like WOW!  Anyway, when ABC went to the All-Star fornat in 1974, the set changed to a blue background with mostly a white table with red on it.  I guess it could've been its way of reminding us that the Bicentenial Year(1976) is just around the corner(not in about another year but in a subtke way).

As far as preservations go, CBS was smart to have many of its shows preserved even when they're not on TVLand these days.  NBC clearly was the "Game Show Eraser" of the big 3 back then   I never would've thought storing old TJW episodes in a basement could lead to them collecting dust for nearly 30 years before Game Shiw Network acquired those shows(even if it only lasted a few weeks).
Title: Password II
Post by: Ian Wallis on December 17, 2004, 08:57:52 AM
Quote
But IMO, I think somewhere in a vault somewhere, someone has the masters to Password II, that's my theory. I'm basing these answers from the fact that the Production company owns the tapes and not the network.


That may be the case, but if it was you'd think that GSN would have "found" them by now as they have rights to the Goodson-Todman shows.  There are a couple of other GT shows from around the same time period which are also missing - "Showoffs" and "The Better Sex".  GSN's aired only two episodes of "TBS", and absolutely none of "Showoffs".  Both of those were on ABC too.  It's likely that ABC was reusing tapes without Goodson's knowledge, because he had a good track record of keeping everything.

For that matter, an NBC show from the late '70s also seems to be MIA - "Mindreaders" - not that anyone's clamoring to see it, but if it exists and GSN has it, it seems odd they've never aired an episode of it.  There are theories that Goodson wanted the show erased because it's widely considered to be his weakest effort, but I don't buy it.
Title: Password II
Post by: Jimmy Owen on December 17, 2004, 09:06:58 AM
The problem is even if the shows do exist, there is no viable audience to watch them.  The shows that do exist (Narz NYSI, CP, TT, Color BTC, TTTT, WML? and Password I, III, IV, etc) are collecting dust.  Whether erased or intact, we have no way to see them.
Title: Password II
Post by: zachhoran on December 17, 2004, 09:11:33 AM
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 08:57 AM\']

That may be the case, but if it was you'd think that GSN would have "found" them by now as they have rights to the Goodson-Todman shows.  There are a couple of other GT shows from around the same time period which are also missing - "Showoffs" and "The Better Sex". 

For that matter, an NBC show from the late '70s also seems to be MIA - "Mindreaders"
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There are two other GT shows from the 70s GSN hasn't aired any episodes of(besides Narz Concentration and syndie TPIR for reasons we already know): the 1977-78 weekly syndie version of Tattletales and the Summer 1976 CBS primetime run of IGAS
Title: Password II
Post by: Ian Wallis on December 17, 2004, 09:19:39 AM
Quote
There are two other GT shows from the 70s GSN hasn't aired any episodes of(besides Narz Concentration and syndie TPIR for reasons we already know): the 1977-78 weekly syndie version of Tattletales and the Summer 1976 CBS primetime run of IGAS


It is believed that GSN actually has the weekly "Tattletales", but couldn't air it due to celebrity clearances.  According to old TVGuide listings, Bob Newhart was a frequent guest on it, and it's believed either he or his wife Ginny has requested those episodes not to be seen again.  GSN probably figured it wasn't worth touching it considering how few episodes of the weekly version were produced (which is too bad, because I've never seen that version).

As for the '76 "I've Got a Secret", altough there is one episode of it in the trade curcuit, the four-episode series is another that is MIA.
Title: Password II
Post by: zachhoran on December 17, 2004, 10:03:47 AM
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 09:19 AM\']

It is believed that GSN actually has the weekly "Tattletales", but couldn't air it due to celebrity clearances.  According to old TVGuide listings, Bob Newhart was a frequent guest on it, and it's believed either he or his wife Ginny has requested those episodes not to be seen again.


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Bob Newhart was seen on some of the nighttime Marshall HS episodes aired on GSN in 2002-03, so it could have been Ginny deciding she didn't want the episodes aired. Some weeks of daytime Tattletales from both runs featured the Newharts, and those weeks too were skipped over.
Title: Password II
Post by: curtking on December 17, 2004, 10:25:49 AM
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 09:19 AM\']According to old TVGuide listings, Bob Newhart was a frequent guest on it, and it's believed either he or his wife Ginny has requested those episodes not to be seen again.
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I've gotta ask...have either of the Newharts given a reason why they don't want these aired?

Curt
Title: Password II
Post by: Ian Wallis on December 17, 2004, 10:48:00 AM
Pure speculation...but considering the sometimes personal subject matter that was discussed on "Tattletales", maybe they didn't want that to be brought up again.  The ban must have been "all or nothing", because a week of "Super Password" they appeared on has never aired on GSN either.
Title: Password II
Post by: clemon79 on December 17, 2004, 11:29:25 AM
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 06:57 AM\']For that matter, an NBC show from the late '70s also seems to be MIA - "Mindreaders" - not that anyone's clamoring to see it,
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I hear the people who worked on that show were complete hacks. ;)
Title: Password II
Post by: 14gameshows on December 17, 2004, 11:35:25 AM
Going off topic a bit, G-T produced other shows in different categories, like drama, variety and talk.  Are these shows intact as well?
Title: Password II
Post by: 14gameshows on December 17, 2004, 11:37:10 AM
I forgot to ask this question, how many episodes of the nighttime version of Tattletales exist?  Also was this a 5-a-night strip program or a weekly version like the previous nighttime G-T shows at the time.  Also were the rules different in this version?
Title: Password II
Post by: AH3RD on December 17, 2004, 11:45:39 AM
You can consult my ABC Password Page (http://\"http://www.geocities.com/ABCPass/\") for further reference of the lost 1971-75 ABC edition of The Word Game Of The Stars.
Title: Password II
Post by: RMF on December 17, 2004, 01:05:16 PM
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 08:57 AM\']For that matter, an NBC show from the late '70s also seems to be MIA - "Mindreaders" - not that anyone's clamoring to see it, but if it exists and GSN has it, it seems odd they've never aired an episode of it. 
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Could it be possible that Dick Martin has refused permission to re-air it?
Title: Password II
Post by: Jimmy Owen on December 17, 2004, 01:35:36 PM
[quote name=\'RMF\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 01:05 PM\'][quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 08:57 AM\']For that matter, an NBC show from the late '70s also seems to be MIA - "Mindreaders" - not that anyone's clamoring to see it, but if it exists and GSN has it, it seems odd they've never aired an episode of it. 
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Could it be possible that Dick Martin has refused permission to re-air it?
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My impression from watching Dick Martin is that he wouldn't mind too much. Heck,  GSN showed "Monday Night Quarterback" didn't they?
Title: Password II
Post by: RMF on December 17, 2004, 03:26:37 PM
[quote name=\'Jimmy Owen\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 01:35 PM\'][quote name=\'RMF\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 01:05 PM\'][quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 08:57 AM\']For that matter, an NBC show from the late '70s also seems to be MIA - "Mindreaders" - not that anyone's clamoring to see it, but if it exists and GSN has it, it seems odd they've never aired an episode of it. 
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Could it be possible that Dick Martin has refused permission to re-air it?
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My impression from watching Dick Martin is that he wouldn't mind too much. Heck,  GSN showed "Monday Night Quarterback" didn't they?
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True.

The problem is, it shouldn't be erased, at least by the network, as there's no evidence that NBC erased anything after April 1978, over a year before the premiere of "Mindreaders".
Title: Password II
Post by: clemon79 on December 17, 2004, 03:47:34 PM
[quote name=\'RMF\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 01:26 PM\']The problem is, it shouldn't be erased, at least by the network, as there's no evidence that NBC erased anything after April 1978, over a year before the premiere of "Mindreaders".
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Some would argue that "Time Machine" SHOULD have been, though... :)
Title: Password II
Post by: zachhoran on December 17, 2004, 07:37:50 PM
[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 11:35 AM\']Going off topic a bit, G-T produced other shows in different categories, like drama, variety and talk.  Are these shows intact as well?
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The western shows Branded and The Rebel, which I believe GT were connected with, should still be around, having aired in reruns as recently as the late 80s/early 90s on CBN/FAM and WABC-NY late nights.
Title: Password II
Post by: zachhoran on December 17, 2004, 07:39:17 PM
[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 11:37 AM\']I forgot to ask this question, how many episodes of the nighttime version of Tattletales exist?  Also was this a 5-a-night strip program or a weekly version like the previous nighttime G-T shows at the time.  Also were the rules different in this version?
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This was a weekly syndie, so more than likely 39 shows were done of it for the 1977-78 season. The shows may well exist, but GSN has never aired them.
Title: Password II
Post by: Dbacksfan12 on December 17, 2004, 08:59:42 PM
[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 07:39 PM\']The shows may well exist, but GSN has never aired them.
[/quote]
Which answers about 1/4th of the mans question.  AFAIK, the rule structure was the same, as well as the payouts. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
Title: Password II
Post by: ChuckNet on December 17, 2004, 09:56:09 PM
Quote
For that matter, an NBC show from the late '70s also seems to be MIA - "Mindreaders" - not that anyone's clamoring to see it, but if it exists and GSN has it, it seems odd they've never aired an episode of it. There are theories that Goodson wanted the show erased because it's widely considered to be his weakest effort, but I don't buy it.

Incidentally, 10-time GS contestant Don Benn did a stint on Mindreaders...he was supposed to get all 3 of his eps on tape, but due to a time mix-up, he wound up w/3 soap opera eps (prolly The Doctors) instead.

Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby")
Title: Password II
Post by: Johnissoevil on December 17, 2004, 10:30:26 PM
[quote name=\'zachhoran\' date=\'Dec 17 2004, 09:11 AM\']There are two other GT shows from the 70s GSN hasn't aired any episodes of(besides Narz Concentration and syndie TPIR for reasons we already know): the 1977-78 weekly syndie version of Tattletales and the Summer 1976 CBS primetime run of IGAS
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I thought I remembered seeing the syndie run of TattleTales on GSN once as part of As Seen on Theater.  Maybe I mistook a CBS ep for it. -_-
Title: Password II
Post by: Jimmy Owen on December 18, 2004, 05:38:10 AM
The TV Guide print ads for the nighttime "Tattletales" had Bert in a tuxedo and the celebs in evening wear.  Don't know if that happened every week.
Title: Password II
Post by: ChuckNet on December 19, 2004, 04:57:42 PM
Quote
I thought I remembered seeing the syndie run of TattleTales on GSN once as part of As Seen on Theater. Maybe I mistook a CBS ep for it. -_-

I think so...AFAIK, GSN has never aired a single ep of the syndie run (which would be distinguishable from its daytime counterpart in that it had 3 breaks instead of 4 and fee plugs at the end of the show, instead of midway through the 2nd break).

Chuck Donegan (The Illustrious "Chuckie Baby")
Title: Password II
Post by: Ian Wallis on December 20, 2004, 10:05:44 AM
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I think so...AFAIK, GSN has never aired a single ep of the syndie run (which would be distinguishable from its daytime counterpart in that it had 3 breaks instead of 4 and fee plugs at the end of the show, instead of midway through the 2nd break).


Does anyone know if the payouts were the same - 150-150-150-300?  The reason I ask is that usually more money was given away on nighttime shows ... not that money was the main reason to watch "Tattletales", but inquiring minds want to know.
Title: Password II
Post by: clemon79 on December 20, 2004, 11:35:58 AM
[quote name=\'Ian Wallis\' date=\'Dec 20 2004, 08:05 AM\']Does anyone know if the payouts were the same - 150-150-150-300?  The reason I ask is that usually more money was given away on nighttime shows ... not that money was the main reason to watch "Tattletales", but inquiring minds want to know.
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Yes, that never changed. (Before Horan butts in, they would also throw in an additional $300 question if it turned out they had extra time.)
Title: Password II
Post by: zachhoran on December 20, 2004, 12:20:48 PM
[quote name=\'clemon79\' date=\'Dec 20 2004, 11:35 AM\']
Yes, that never changed. (Before Horan butts in, they would also throw in an additional $300 question if it turned out they had extra time.)
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So Syndie Tattletales was one of the few nighttime versions of a network daytime game show that didn't offer Extreme Mo' Money(by 70s-80s standards)
Title: Password II
Post by: uncamark on December 20, 2004, 03:33:26 PM
"Branded"'s syndication rights are owned by King World and I'm sure they'd pull it out if someone wanted it.

It seems to me that "The Richard Boone Show" is extant in at least part, due to it being made on film and the prestigious nature of the project.  Under the standard contract for independent production companies, the network's syndication division (that being NBC Films) handled the syndication.  Since the libraries of all of the original syndication arms of the Big 3 are now owned by Paramount, they would probably control the show, unless they sold it back to G-T or one of its successors.

"The Don Rickles Show," if it is extant, is probably in terrible condition and it seems to me that no one at G-T had a particular interest in keeping it.

And "That's My Line!" is probably extant and may've even been included in the conversion project or scheduled to be included until someone noticed it wasn't a game show.  I would venture that the tapes for that one are otherwise somewhere in the bowels of TV City.

And the live episodes of "The Web" are probably long gone, but the one filmed series could be extant and would be distributed by Paramount.

And to back up on Matt's post, Max Lliebman kept most of the kinescopes of "Your Show of Shows" and its successor, "Caesar's Hour" (as for its predecessor, "The Admiral Broadway Revue," that's up in the air) and made a compilation theatrical film, "Ten From 'Your Show of Shows,'" in the 70s.  In the 80s, Caesar acquired the rights to the shows from the Liebman estate and hosted a syndicated repackage of the series that also ran on the old HA! and the early days of Comedy Central.
Title: Password II
Post by: Matt Ottinger on December 23, 2004, 09:53:35 PM
[quote name=\'14gameshows\' date=\'Dec 16 2004, 10:59 AM\']I will say on a side note that CBS looks to be the only network that valued their programming, look at network version of TJW, all thought it was lost until a staffer at WCBS stumbled across the masters in the basement.  First of all, why would those masters be at WCBS and not KCBS in LA? [/quote]
They weren't.  I'm told reliably that The Joker's Wild masters were discovered in Los Angeles, not New York.
Title: Password II
Post by: chris319 on December 24, 2004, 02:02:06 AM
Harris Katelman would probably know the whereabouts and status of the G-T non-game shows.

Word is that Goodson wasn't interested in syndication at first, either for game or non-game shows, and had to fairly be dragged into it by either Bud Austin or Jerry Chester.