The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: RMF on October 08, 2020, 01:58:08 AM
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A brief piece from one of the blogs of the Library of Congress, discussing how the National Audio-Visual Conservation Center has recently been processing a substantial number of kinescopes donated by Mark Goodson Productions:
https://blogs.loc.gov/now-see-hear/2020/10/this-is-a-mark-goodson-bill-todman-production/
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Outside of "The Web", which is a dramatic anthology series, these are just the kinescopes we've been enjoying on GSN and Buzzr for all these years. G-T had everything transferred first, then donated the no-longer-necessary films.
There are certainly a handful of shows that neither service has aired, for any number of reasons (tobacco sponsors, clearance issues, quality concerns, etc), but this isn't some treasure trove of undiscovered material.
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Outside of "The Web", which is a dramatic anthology series, these are just the kinescopes we've been enjoying on GSN and Buzzr for all these years. G-T had everything transferred first, then donated the no-longer-necessary films.
There are certainly a handful of shows that neither service has aired, for any number of reasons (tobacco sponsors, clearance issues, quality concerns, etc), but this isn't some treasure trove of undiscovered material.
Nevertheless, if one were planning to be in DC anyway, it would make a trip to the LOC worthwhile.
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Nevertheless, if one were planning to be in DC anyway, it would make a trip to the LOC worthwhile.
If there was a detailed catalog of their holdings, like the article seems to indicate they're working on, then yeah, I would dig in big time to see what there is that we haven't been shown yet. Just in the last couple of weeks, two different IGAS episodes have turned up that GSN never got around to airing. I just have to wonder how much of a broader interest there really is in that level of specificity, when literally hundreds of examples of those shows are available on YouTube.
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Nevertheless, if one were planning to be in DC anyway, it would make a trip to the LOC worthwhile.
If there was a detailed catalog of their holdings, like the article seems to indicate they're working on, then yeah, I would dig in big time to see what there is that we haven't been shown yet. Just in the last couple of weeks, two different IGAS episodes have turned up that GSN never got around to airing. I just have to wonder how much of a broader interest there really is in that level of specificity, when literally hundreds of examples of those shows are available on YouTube.
What Matt said. Other than He Said She Said and Two for the Money, which didn't have a whole lot of airings on GSN and BUZZR, there's not a lot here that I'd spend hours in the LoC researching. (My family and I usually go to DC once or twice a year as we have lots of family and friends there, but my wife and son wouldn't have the patience to sit in the LoC all day to watching half-century episodes of old shows.)
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I emailed the LOC to ask if they had catalogued the collection yet and they replied with a bunch of Excel documents. I've uploaded and shared them here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1NTKCXrgzziG_zJacbWPc8UkJAbGGYB_y?usp=sharing
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With the exception of a few Daytime Price episodes, probably the most interesting for me is the 1969 Beat the Clock. Probably the pilot?
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With the exception of a few Daytime Price episodes, probably the most interesting for me is the 1969 Beat the Clock. Probably the pilot?
I noticed a few daytime Password episodes as well, including a couple from very early in the run.
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With the exception of a few Daytime Price episodes, probably the most interesting for me is the 1969 Beat the Clock. Probably the pilot?
I noticed a few daytime Password episodes as well, including a couple from very early in the run.
Those caught my eye as well... correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the earliest circulating episode the 1962 primetime premiere?
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The Password listings raise some interesting questions since any listing of a primetime episode refers to the backup kinescope and not the videotape master that still exists and has aired on GSN. Most of the episodes listed are clearly primetime even when they're not specifically identified as "primetime" and I noticed how the first five primetime shows from January-February 1962 do not have a listing at all even though they exist in their videotape versions and have aired (and looking further there are other extant night shows on tape that don't seem to have a kinescope backup)
The dates that have to be daytime are:
11/20/61 (Burnett-Moore)
11/21/61 (Burnett-Moore)
6/20/66 (Florence Henderson-Paul Anka)
8/3/66 (Betty White-Barry Nelson)
12/25/66 (The first of the night show revival episodes; this does not exist in a syndicated repeat version. All-star with Lee Remick, Peter Lawford, Otto Preminger, Stephen Sondheim, Audrey Meadows)
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"He Said, She Said" only has three entries and two of them have to be the different pilot episodes that aired on GSN (one which had Gene Rayburn and the rest civilian contestants). So there's only one item there that GSN never aired.
"I've Got A Secret" I noticed does not list the initial episodes from the summer of 1952 that survive nor does it list the last two shows (one of which is the one that turned up recently). They also list dates that were summer repeat broadcasts once you get into the 60s.
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It looks like they have about 170 episodes of Two for the Money, which I'm sure is nowhere near the number that aired on GSN during that brief time when they were less strict about tobacco sponsors.
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A note of importance, looking at this discussion:
Mark Goodson Productions appears to have split its kinescope library when it made its 1990s donations between at least two archives: the Library of Congress (about which we are getting details now), and the UCLA Film and Television Archive (which has a searchable database).
An example of these splits can be found looking at Judge For Yourself: the Library of Congress has thirteen episodes, which aired near-continuously from late November of 1953 to February of 1954, while UCLA has fourteen episodes, of which five date to before the LoC set and nine to the last months of the run.
This explains a couple of the gaps already noted- for instance, the earliest surviving IGAS episodes are held at UCLA. However, it also gives this list value in a different regard- these lists by themselves attest well to surviving G-T materials for some series that didn't go to UCLA in large numbers and for which the reruns are not fully confirmatory (in addition to Two For The Money, it confirms how much survives of Beat The Clock, which I'm not sure GSN has rerun the entire 1950s primetime run of, and The Price Is Right, where sponsorship and Barker issues apparently combined to make a pile of episodes unrerunable).
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There are a large number of random BTC episodes from 53-55 that may have been skipped during various runs on GSN. 9/15/58 is an unaired one and that's a wrong date because 9/12/58 was the last CBS daytime show (the nighttime run ended in February 1958 and the last five months are totally absent) so it could be the last CBS daytime show. The ABC daytime version didn't debut until October 1958.
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I'm working up a definitive list of I've Got A Secret now, but just as an example, GSN has only ever aired seven episodes from 1954, and the LOC has 31 of them. These would have all been Winston shows.
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One of the LOC's Moving Image technicians reached out during the period they were cataloguing the TTTT collection for help dating one of the shows that GSN never aired (the LOC's copy was a summer rebroadcast). The happy result: two episodes no longer branded with unknown contestants at http://www.ttttontheweb.com/ttttnighttimeguide.html (http://www.ttttontheweb.com/ttttnighttimeguide.html). Dates are 10/25/65 and 02/07/66.
Marshall
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Well, the LoC holdings have at least sixty-seven episodes of I've Got a Secret than neither GSN nor Buzzr have aired, and now this operation has my attention. Most are from 1954-55, during the Winston era, but there are others as well. Most notable from a historical perspective is probably the 1/22/53 episode with Monty Woolley. This is the one referenced by both Gil Fates and Allan Sherman in their memoirs, Woolley apparently blustered on live television that his "secret" was made up and forced on him by Sherman.
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The 12/25/66 episode of Password is interesting too-- I was contacted by someone looking for it for Mr. Sondheim years ago, but had no info at that time.
The episode was apparently an "All-Star" affair, with eight (!!) different celebs playing in different combinations-- from the pictures I found at Getty Images, it was: Phyllis Newman, Stephen Sondheim, Lee Remick, Pierre Salinger, Peter Lawford, Otto Preminger, Audrey Meadows and someone they list as being "unidentified", but who I believe is Joan Fontaine.
Here's a link to the best pic:
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/phyllis-newman-stephen-sondheim-lee-remick-unidentified-news-photo/106670426?uiloc=thumbnail_more_from_this_event_adp
I'd like to see **that** show (as well as the late-1961 daytime eps, of course)!
- Kevin
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I'd like to see **that** show!
Seconded! I'd always assumed it exists, but this is the first time I've seen proof.
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Yes, I think the "unidentified" one has to be Joan Fontaine. And that would be a great episode to see even if just in it's B/W kinescope version! Lee Remick did a number of daytime weeks in the pre-66 period but this was her only night show.
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Hmm...
I was just forwarded a clip from a contemporary 1966 newspaper listing that states that the unidentified woman in the Getty Images pic may be Lee Remick's mother, actress Pat Packard. Of course, the same clipping also **doesn't** mention Otto Preminger.
Anyone want to hazard a guess on this one? I can't find an image of Ms. Packard for comparison... but that woman in the pic really looks like Joan Fontaine to me.
- Kevin
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I heard about Packard too and yeah, I can't find a confirming picture but then again you'd think Getty would have known to identify Joan Fontaine if it was her. If it is Packard all I can say she'd be a dead ringer for Fontaine at that point!
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That's Joan Fontaine.
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I just received a reminder from someone to the effect that BUZZR is going to show the Sondheim episode of Password on May 16th...!
Guess it helps to point people in the right direction...
- Kevin
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Did they find the videotape version prepared for the syndicated package or are they going to use the kinescope? Either way, it'll be great to see it!
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Did they find the videotape version prepared for the syndicated package or are they going to use the kinescope? Either way, it'll be great to see it!
Considering that promos for that event show the Sondheim footage in B&W, I'd assume the kinescope.
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Did they find the videotape version prepared for the syndicated package or are they going to use the kinescope?
The research manager from MT&R, who tracked down the episode, says that it is indeed the kinescope.
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With the exception of a few Daytime Price episodes, probably the most interesting for me is the 1969 Beat the Clock. Probably the pilot?
I know GSN aired at least one Gene Wood episode (it was back before it ran overnight infomercials, and it aired in the "extra hour" on the day DST ended one year); I'm surprised there aren't more of those included.
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With the exception of a few Daytime Price episodes, probably the most interesting for me is the 1969 Beat the Clock. Probably the pilot?
I know GSN aired at least one Gene Wood episode (it was back before it ran overnight infomercials, and it aired in the "extra hour" on the day DST ended one year); I'm surprised there aren't more of those included.
I remember Wood BTC being on GSN's regular schedule at least around 1997, wanna say the weekday 6 am slot?
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I think they aired on weekend mornings in the late-90s, around fall 1998. I could be thinking of the Narz run though.
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Narz episodes aired on weekend mornings up to the onset of the DP. The last Narz episode to air on the schedule was the second episode of a week with Yankee outfielder Bobby Murcer.
Wood episodes aired daily overnight at about 5 or 6 AM I think up to when the DP started.
What time does the Sondheim-Remick Password air on the 16th? I haven't been watching the channel so I haven't seen the promo and I'm not up on the current schedule.
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What time does the Sondheim-Remick Password air on the 16th? I haven't been watching the channel so I haven't seen the promo and I'm not up on the current schedule.
Looks like it kicks off their Broadway Matinee marathon at 3 p.m. Eastern. It's in a 40 minute time slot so it should include original commercials.
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Narz episodes aired on weekend mornings up to the onset of the DP. The last Narz episode to air on the schedule was the second episode of a week with Yankee outfielder Bobby Murcer.
Wood episodes aired daily overnight at about 5 or 6 AM I think up to when the DP started.
This makes sense. I have one Narz episode (with Bobby Murcer) and three Gene Wood episodes in my videotape collection (too bad I don't own a VCR, and all of them were taped LP mode).
My notes show that S&P apparently looked the other way during one Wood episode; Tom Poston blatantly cheated as time was running out and he got away with it.
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It is possible that there wasn't a Standards & Practices presence at any of the G-T shows produced exclusively for syndication and without a network station group involved.
There were syndicated nighttime versions of MG, FF and TPIR produced in conjunction with the ABC and NBC station groups and a S&P representative was always present. AFAIK the Narz version of Concentration was not produced for a network station group and there may have been no S&P. It was before my time.
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Also, there is the fact that the Narz/Wood era of BTC taped in Canada; do they have any rough equivalent of 47 U.S.C. 509 on their books up there?
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[Does Canada] have any rough equivalent of 47 U.S.C. 509 on their books up there?
AFAIK, not specifically as it relates to game shows. The Competition Act (https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/rsc-1985-c-c-34/latest/rsc-1985-c-c-34.html) has provisions for contests where you have to buy something in order to participate (McDonald's Monopoly, RRRRoll up the Rim to Win, etc.), but that didn't even come on to the books until 1985.
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In this case, the only "loser" was the production company, who paid out whatever amount of money the couple received at the board they wouldn't have received otherwise. That version didn't have any bonus or endgame for whatever couple did the most stunts or accumulated the most money, so it's not like the other couple got cheated out of anything.
The 1970s Beat the Clock had such a low prize budget, it might have cost about the same to edit the show to take out the "completed" stunt as it would to pay them the money.
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Also, there is the fact that the Narz/Wood era of BTC taped in Canada; do they have any rough equivalent of 47 U.S.C. 509 on their books up there?
I don't know about Canadian law, but the shows aired in the U.S. so section 509 applied.
B&E did several syndicated shows without the involvement of a network station group. The last thing they needed was another quiz scandal, and laws were in place in the '70s that weren't in place in the '50s.
Bob Noah would know all about this but he doesn't seem to want to talk. So would Ron Greenberg.
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Good episode, especially for an All-Star ep-- glad to see that the people at BUZZR came up with a reason to show it.
And Pat Packard **really did** look like Joan Fontaine...
- Kevin
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She certainly did! Fooled us completely in the publicity pix.
By my count there are still three 67 night shows unaccounted for that apparently did not air on GSN when 67 night shows were part of the regular Password night cycle. Barbara Feldon-Jim Backus (which I know GSN skipped when they were airing these) Florence Henderson-Eli Wallach, and Gloria and Jimmy Stewart.
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I knew I knew the name Pierre Salinger but couldn’t remember why, and just looked it up. “Wow,” I said to my wife, “When’s the last time you saw a White House Press Secretary on a game show?” and she *immediately* responded, “The current one, on Wait Wait…Don’t Tell Me.” i had to admit I’d forgotten about that appearance, although it seemed far more on-brand for an NPR show than a prime time TV episode. Also I did not point out, in the interest of marital stability, that she *heard* rather than *saw* Ms Ptaki.
Still, though, this Password was a delight.
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A year later, Salinger appeared on "Batman" as the crooked lawyer of the Joker and Catwoman in an episode. Then in the late 70s he reinvented himself as an ABC News correspondent.
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I knew I knew the name Pierre Salinger but couldn’t remember why, and just looked it up. “Wow,” I said to my wife, “When’s the last time you saw a White House Press Secretary on a game show?” and she *immediately* responded, “The current one, on Wait Wait…Don’t Tell Me.” i had to admit I’d forgotten about that appearance, although it seemed far more on-brand for an NPR show than a prime time TV episode. Also I did not point out, in the interest of marital stability, that she *heard* rather than *saw* Ms Ptaki.
Dee Dee Myers on one of the Power Players weeks of Celebrity Jeopardy! would also count.
George Stephanopoulos kinda sorta counts - he was a de facto Press Secretary for the first months of Bill Clinton's first term - but he's done so much that that role was a blip on his radar, a lot more than Salinger.
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I knew I knew the name Pierre Salinger but couldn’t remember why, and just looked it up. “Wow,” I said to my wife, “When’s the last time you saw a White House Press Secretary on a game show?” and she *immediately* responded, “The current one, on Wait Wait…Don’t Tell Me.” i had to admit I’d forgotten about that appearance, although it seemed far more on-brand for an NPR show than a prime time TV episode. Also I did not point out, in the interest of marital stability, that she *heard* rather than *saw* Ms Ptaki.
Dee Dee Myers on one of the Power Players weeks of Celebrity Jeopardy! would also count.
Absolutely! She also did a week of Hollywood Squares back in '99. At that time, she was a consultant on the show The West Wing.
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I knew I knew the name Pierre Salinger but couldn’t remember why, and just looked it up. “Wow,” I said to my wife, “When’s the last time you saw a White House Press Secretary on a game show?” and she *immediately* responded, “The current one, on Wait Wait…Don’t Tell Me.” i had to admit I’d forgotten about that appearance, although it seemed far more on-brand for an NPR show than a prime time TV episode. Also I did not point out, in the interest of marital stability, that she *heard* rather than *saw* Ms Ptaki.
Still, though, this Password was a delight.
I just looked this up—Eisenhower press secretary Jim Hagerty appeared on WML? a couple of times as a Mystery Guest.
EDIT: He was actually a Mystery Guest in 1957 and a panelist later that year. In 1961, after Eisenhower left office, Hagerty became vice president of ABC News, replacing... John Daly.