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The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: TimK2003 on October 01, 2020, 01:19:13 AM

Title: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: TimK2003 on October 01, 2020, 01:19:13 AM
Got into a discussion the other night with some game show & trivia geeks about what are some of our favorite intellectual and challenging shows of all time.

We pretty much all agreed that Jeopardy was the #1 show of this particular category, but there were some great other choices that led us to watching a few streams to introduce some shows to those unfamiliar with some picks of ours.

Anyhoo, love to hear some of your favorite challenging shows...Here is my 5 picks that came to mind in no particular order::

1) Jeopardy
2) Countdown
3) The Who What & Where Game
4) The Big Showdown
5) Pointless


And yours?
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Chelsea Thrasher on October 01, 2020, 06:26:44 AM
Different types of folks find challenge in different ways; to me, the Concentration series are one of the most difficult games out there.  My brain just absolutely will not translate pictures into words/sounds into phrases in the short burst of time available, particularly when parts are unrevealed.  So to me it's a bona fide *challenge* to sit there and work out a puzzle before to or at the same time as a contestant, because my brain just absolutely does NOT do those types of processes well or particularly quickly. 
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: SuperMatch93 on October 01, 2020, 10:03:26 AM
Mastermind and College Bowl/University Challenge have to be up there. I watched a ton of UC in the early 2010s when I was in high school doing scholastic bowl.

I tried showing my girlfriend an episode of the latter once and it was a bit over her head; typically we watch some of the stuff on Prime Video like Dawson Feud or Celebrity Bowling.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: BrandonFG on October 01, 2020, 10:09:42 AM
Jeopardy
The Challengers
The Big Showdown
Millionaire
Two-Minute Drill

I know we always say it’s a difference between playing at home and being on TV, but (Classic) Concentration is the one show where I just can’t rag on “dumb” contestants. You’re trying to remember whether the bedroom is behind 17 or 23, and then decipher a rebus. That takes skill.

Now You See It, for a similar reason, but trade rebuses for a word search.

I suck at math, but Countdown is fun too. But I think the dryness only works for Brits. I couldn’t imagine how they’d try to Americanize it, unless it aired on PBS.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Unrealtor on October 01, 2020, 10:43:52 AM
I'm going to include the obvious and say Only Connect. Some of the questions are pure thinking, but there are a lot that require trivia knowledge and the ability to think one step removed from the information given.

Along those lines, in my mind, the writing on Jeopardy has gotten easier as the clues have gotten more explicit about cueing contestants to the piece of information they want in response. These days, you're more likely to get "there are 5,280 feet in one of these" than having to put the category of "weights and measures" and an answer of "5,280 feet" together to get "What is a mile?" It's still covering a huge range of material, but it's more recall and less thinking.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: MikeK on October 01, 2020, 11:19:21 AM
Only Connect
Double Dare CBS
Million Dollar Mind Game
The Challengers
Jeopardy!, natch
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: jage on October 01, 2020, 11:42:01 AM
I'll add to the mix Grand Slam, especially the words/math rounds.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: chris319 on October 01, 2020, 01:18:47 PM
College Bowl.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: mmb5 on October 01, 2020, 06:43:09 PM
History IQ
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: rebelwrest on October 01, 2020, 11:20:20 PM
In terms of the most challenging shows of all time, I would put up Britain's The Krypton Factor.  Not only did you have to be smart, you had to have astute mental agility, a good memory, great hand-eye coordination, near perfect spatial intelligence, and uh.........oh yeah RUN A FREAKIN OBSTACLE COURSE BUILT BY THE MILITARY.

The winner of each series was given the title of UK Superperson of the year.  That's the right title for the winner.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: beatlefreak84 on October 02, 2020, 12:01:12 AM
The first two I immediately thought of were Million Dollar Mind Game and Grand Slam.  Certainly, Jeopardy! is currently the most intellectual game show on American TV, so I'll include that.

If I were to stick with solely American game shows, I'd go with the following (in no particular order):

Jeopardy!
Million Dollar Mind Game
Grand Slam
Camouflage (GSN) - some of those puzzles were downright brutal to solve without almost all the letters removed, though maybe I just sucked at the game!
Dirty Rotten Cheater/The Enemy Within - The challenging part of these, and why I always said I'd be terrible at these, is because you don't want to build up too much money/get too many right answers/seem too smart, and that just goes against the gut instinct of how a trivia game works (I don't include Weakest Link in this because, even though strong players may get eliminated, that's not the point of the show)

Fun topic!

Anthony
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: jmangin on October 02, 2020, 12:09:10 AM
I'm going to include the obvious and say Only Connect.
This show is superb. Some clues you are in sync with after two clues, and others so obscure. This is one of two shows that have struck a chord with my "non-game show" friends. The other is Three on a Match. Always when I show someone Only Connect for the first time -- they love it. Dry humor, a cerebral game and unique format. It's fantastic.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: BillCullen1 on October 02, 2020, 07:57:24 AM
I don't believe anyone has mentioned "The Chase" so far.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Ian Wallis on October 02, 2020, 10:01:15 AM
Different types of folks find challenge in different ways; to me, the Concentration series are one of the most difficult games out there.  My brain just absolutely will not translate pictures into words/sounds into phrases in the short burst of time available, particularly when parts are unrevealed.  So to me it's a bona fide *challenge* to sit there and work out a puzzle before to or at the same time as a contestant, because my brain just absolutely does NOT do those types of processes well or particularly quickly.

I'm with you on that.  I'm actually pretty good at remembering where things are, but I've never been good at solving those puzzles.  I could see myself on that show, racking up a ton of prizes, and not being able to win the game.  I guess I'd be good for the prize budget!
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: joshg on October 02, 2020, 11:13:21 AM
Different types of folks find challenge in different ways; to me, the Concentration series are one of the most difficult games out there.  My brain just absolutely will not translate pictures into words/sounds into phrases in the short burst of time available, particularly when parts are unrevealed.  So to me it's a bona fide *challenge* to sit there and work out a puzzle before to or at the same time as a contestant, because my brain just absolutely does NOT do those types of processes well or particularly quickly.

I'm with you on that.  I'm actually pretty good at remembering where things are, but I've never been good at solving those puzzles.  I could see myself on that show, racking up a ton of prizes, and not being able to win the game.  I guess I'd be good for the prize budget!

I'm just the opposite, the puzzles are easier for me than the memory part. I love mashing the english language together to get 'No Smoking' from a nose + the letters 'mo' + a picture of a king. It seems though that Steve Ryan tried to use letters and symbols that got closer to the actual words in the solution. Cat = get  was a recent example on Narz Concentration that plays with your mind a bit more than it should have.

As for the matching, I find myself so distracted by hearing Johnny O on my TV that I don't pay attention to where the H'Hold Lube is or any of the other head starts are  ;D Although on Classic, the contestants took so damn long to choose a number, I actually had an easier time remembering the matches.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: BillCullen1 on October 02, 2020, 11:24:14 AM
There's a British show called "Cleverdicks" that's quite challenging.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: calliaume on October 02, 2020, 12:49:52 PM
I'm going to put in a word for Split Second, especially the Countdown Round. Most of the other shows here, when answers were needed under a time constraint, it was one answer to one question. For Split Second, you had to choose which of the three clues to respond to, and then give the response--and in the Countdown Round, you had to then think about the next clue. How many contestants lost out by tripping over their own tongues?
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: BrandonFG on October 02, 2020, 04:22:05 PM
I'm going to put in a word for Split Second, especially the Countdown Round. Most of the other shows here, when answers were needed under a time constraint, it was one answer to one question. For Split Second, you had to choose which of the three clues to respond to, and then give the response--and in the Countdown Round, you had to then think about the next clue. How many contestants lost out by tripping over their own tongues?
This is a great one, esp. if you have your mind set on a particular clue (say, the top one), and your opponents who buzzed in a split second before leave you with the one clue you didn't know. I remember seeing several contestants blank as a result.

I know a few people feel the bonus round was out-of-place, but after such a grueling trivia game, I think it was a reward for running such a gauntlet.

I'd also add Whew! to this list. Running that main board is no light work, considering the blocks.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: That Don Guy on October 02, 2020, 07:23:06 PM
My five:
College Bowl/University Challenge/Honda Campus All-Star Challenge (at least when it used the CB format)
Jeopardy
$64,000/$128,000 Question - I would have liked to see how Our Little Genius handled it, but its two episodes never aired because of irregularities
Mastermind (UK)
and if radio counts, Brain of Britain (also UK; BBC World Service ran this for a while)

By the way, University Challenge is currently in its 50th season; episodes can be seen on YouTube, usually uploaded on Mondays, a few hours after they air
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: The Ol' Guy on October 02, 2020, 08:30:09 PM
I'll throw an interesting one in the mix and see what you think - going along with the Concentration post, one game that called for split second analysis was Bumper Stumpers. Since it was a phonics-based puzzle game, you had just seconds to figure if a 12 was "one-two", "twelve" or "dozen." (12ELKGD - Doesn't he look good). May not have been the most intellectual game, but it was challenging. You had to have some smarts to figure a lot of them out.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Otm Shank on October 03, 2020, 01:35:00 AM
Going to throw in the unpopular opinion that The Challengers gets ranked higher than Jeopardy. You really can't cram for Jeopardy, but for Challengers you had to stay abreast of current events. I'll put Split Second a very close third owing to the rapid recall, quick pivots, and pacing. I'll leave it at 3 because it's hard to chose only 2 from the rest
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Fedya on October 03, 2020, 09:01:59 AM
Quote
You really can't cram for Jeopardy,

I'm not quite certain what you meant by this, since cramming for J! seemed to turn out OK for Roger Craig.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Otm Shank on October 05, 2020, 02:27:09 AM
Well, you can cram for it, but as a general matter other than brushing up on a few of your weak spots (state capitals, Olympic cities, U.N. Secretaries-General, whatever), I don't see it being very useful for too many. Basically, you either know it or you don't.

On that premise, The Challengers requires you to be knowledgeable in current events, although there were many questions that were merely current-events-adjacent. However, it did behoove contestants to at least be scanning the pages of Newsweek and studying up before their tape date.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: SuperMatch93 on October 05, 2020, 07:29:54 AM
Well, you can cram for it, but as a general matter other than brushing up on a few of your weak spots (state capitals, Olympic cities, U.N. Secretaries-General, whatever), I don't see it being very useful for too many. Basically, you either know it or you don't.

I guess it depends on how much you need to cram for. Mort Kamins said once that "you can't start from scratch" and that it's best to study things that are unchanging; presidents, art, classic literature, etc.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Fedya on October 06, 2020, 04:59:58 AM
Or as Brad Rutter could tell you, First Ladies (http://www.j-archive.com/showgame.php?game_id=309).
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Neumms on October 06, 2020, 01:33:22 PM
I'm going to put in a word for Split Second, especially the Countdown Round.

A couple of the few Kennedy Countdown Rounds are just crazy, and in that round you have to buzz first.

I wonder about buzzing strategy in the other two rounds. It seems counter-intuitive but if you don't know the topic, you should try to buzz first to get a shot at the easiest part, and if you know the topic, you may as well stay calm and wait for the last part.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: JasonA1 on October 06, 2020, 01:48:04 PM
I wonder about buzzing strategy in the other two rounds. It seems counter-intuitive but if you don't know the topic, you should try to buzz first to get a shot at the easiest part, and if you know the topic, you may as well stay calm and wait for the last part.

I think a stronger strategy in regards to this exists on The Challengers. If you don't know the topic at all, it behooves you to pick a dollar amount you think another player will pick, as that's the only time the rules allow you not to answer, and not risk losing money.

On Split Second, there's not a strategy per se, but a behavior you should engage in. For the Kennedy run anyway -- on Monty's version, none of this matters, and you should simply hammer the button the moment you can. But in the earlier format, the only thinking you should have is to buzz-in as soon as you think you know where the question's going, and steal the best part. There's no time to really strategize, IMO. And the moment you hear ANYONE ring in first, just ring in to be second, because you'll get the whole question, and perhaps even one wrong guess taken off the table. I can't think of a time I'd ever want to wait, because even if I know all 3 parts of a question, I'd want to leave the harder ones for whoever buzzed in behind me. Waiting around to prove I know the most difficult piece doesn't increase my scoring potential.

-Jason
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Neumms on October 06, 2020, 02:04:16 PM
I think a stronger strategy in regards to this exists on The Challengers. If you don't know the topic at all, it behooves you to pick a dollar amount you think another player will pick, as that's the only time the rules allow you not to answer, and not risk losing money.

On Split Second, there's not a strategy per se, but a behavior you should engage in.

That's a great way to put it on Split Second.

On Challengers, it seems dicey to try to outguess the other players that way. Aren't you better off just taking the question with the lowest risk?

I'm one of few around here who didn't like that show. The 3 Ws had unique strategy. The updates only made it derivative of Jeopardy.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: calliaume on October 06, 2020, 02:14:49 PM
On Split Second, there's not a strategy per se, but a behavior you should engage in. For the Kennedy run anyway -- on Monty's version, none of this matters, and you should simply hammer the button the moment you can. But in the earlier format, the only thinking you should have is to buzz-in as soon as you think you know where the question's going, and steal the best part. There's no time to really strategize, IMO. And the moment you hear ANYONE ring in first, just ring in to be second, because you'll get the whole question, and perhaps even one wrong guess taken off the table. I can't think of a time I'd ever want to wait, because even if I know all 3 parts of a question, I'd want to leave the harder ones for whoever buzzed in behind me. Waiting around to prove I know the most difficult piece doesn't increase my scoring potential.

Excellent point regarding ringing in first on Split Second, and here's an example (I'm not putting up a spoiler alert; it's a 46-year-old video). The third-place contestant during the Countdown Round took a chance and rang in before Tom Kennedy even finished reading the text on the board--and nailed all three answers without even knowing what the question was at all.

https://youtu.be/X7H4085GbaQ?t=220 (https://youtu.be/X7H4085GbaQ?t=220)
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: JasonA1 on October 06, 2020, 02:35:41 PM
On Challengers, it seems dicey to try to outguess the other players that way. Aren't you better off just taking the question with the lowest risk?

Probably. I guess I was leaning on playing it with friends, where the variables are less. If there's a TV category, and the three parts are on Big Bang Theory, Game of Thrones and America's Next Top Model, I know among my friends who would lean towards Game of Thrones, for instance. Perhaps with a known champion, this could emerge as well.

But to this point, I also think The Challengers should have let any player decide to pass a question (and thus avoid losing the value to a wrong answer or time expiring), not just the second (and third) player in a buzzer race. If I ended up alone on a question, I think it should be my right to refuse it if I ultimately don't know. I think this is one of the factors that depressed scoring on that show, and ultimately made the payouts look chintzy compared to Jeopardy! (Ultimate Challenge aside).

-Jason
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Jeremy Nelson on October 06, 2020, 06:15:18 PM
On Challengers, it seems dicey to try to outguess the other players that way. Aren't you better off just taking the question with the lowest risk?
But to this point, I also think The Challengers should have let any player decide to pass a question (and thus avoid losing the value to a wrong answer or time expiring), not just the second (and third) player in a buzzer race. If I ended up alone on a question, I think it should be my right to refuse it if I ultimately don't know. I think this is one of the factors that depressed scoring on that show, and ultimately made the payouts look chintzy compared to Jeopardy! (Ultimate Challenge aside).

-Jason
Minus powerups, The Challengers has $16,000+ less available on their game board. The payouts are chintzy because the front game values lead to a finale with a 4x multiplier that only one contestant may or may not get.

If you just let contestants sit there and pass without penalty, the game gets really boring REALLY quickly. Think about how painful it was to watch that Jeopardy football category. Now think about how painful it would be to watch contestants punt on clues in half the categories.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: Otm Shank on October 06, 2020, 08:12:43 PM
If you just let contestants sit there and pass without penalty, the game gets really boring REALLY quickly.

Although it's another thing to keep overhead on, a limited number of passes (whatever the comfortable amount is based on playtesting) could be employed. Maybe even some strategery to save a pass for a higher value question.

Regarding the Split Second button-mashing strategy, if it was brought back today (it won't, but would be nice), it would be interesting if you had to lock in a selection. The second and third contestants would have the option of answering their original selection or any that were answered incorrectly. Kennedy format, too: selections first, question second.
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: JasonA1 on October 06, 2020, 08:40:26 PM
Minus powerups, The Challengers has $16,000+ less available on their game board. The payouts are chintzy because the front game values lead to a finale with a 4x multiplier that only one contestant may or may not get.

Yes, totally. It made sense economically. One part we touched on in an earlier thread was the idea of letting everyone keep their money, coupled with the potential to see everybody multiply it in the Final Challenge made them skittish on how much to offer up front. It just happens to mean the scoreboards are almost always showing a lower average total than Jeopardy! does. So flipping channels and seeing a game creep up from 850 to 700 to 150 midway through the show, when the podiums are staged identical to theirs with the same display mechanisms, the comparisons are unfavorable.

-Jason
Title: Re: The Most Challenging/Intellectual Shows Of All Time
Post by: TLEberle on October 06, 2020, 09:56:57 PM
I guess it depends on how much you need to cram for. Mort Kamins said once that "you can't start from scratch" and that it's best to study things that are unchanging; presidents, art, classic literature, etc.
Bob Harris and Joyce Brothers would disagree. Also in reading an article written by a Mastermind champion he said that he chose his specialist subjects with an eye towards studying as much as possible in the subject and to keep that window as closed as possible.

Jeopardy assumes that you do have a grounding in American liberal arts and if you somehow get on the show without it, perhaps it will take more studying than just running Anki packets to do well.

Excellent point regarding ringing in first on Split Second, and here's an example (I'm not putting up a spoiler alert; it's a 46-year-old video). The third-place contestant during the Countdown Round took a chance and rang in before Tom Kennedy even finished reading the text on the board--and nailed all three answers without even knowing what the question was at all.
I would argue that Neil did in fact know what the question was because he read and synthesized the clues on the board with his knowledge. It's not like he was buzzing in just because.