The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: jlgarfield on February 28, 2020, 11:24:14 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-kYQIMgLJ8 - After so many years, we now have info on the "eggcrate" display's manufacturer and model number. It is made by Display Systems, and the model number is the 19S-8. See it in action here! :D
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At this time, however, I do not know anything further about the Display Systems company. Anybody have any idea who they were?
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That's pretty cool seeing this video. I remember Chris319 helping me many years ago when trying to emulate one of these displays. Think these were driven by a diode matrix?
-Dan
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Each display is driven by its own diode matrix. You apply 28 volts DC to one pin, and depending on which pin you place the ground, decides which number from 0-9 or "$" symbol gets displayed.
I bought a couple of these and hooked up a relay board to each, and have a little ESP8266 microcontroller controlling the relay boards.
Check it out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT07cAo9s-w
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One thing has long puzzled me about this design. It's a 5x7 matrix, but all of the numbers are actually only made within three rows and three columns of the matrix, which saves you on materials and light bulbs and setting up the circuitry, I imagine. Well, except for the serif on the "1," which sticks outside of the matrix and has a dedicated bulb for use only in that digit. I wonder why they didn't just give the "1" a flat top serif that fit with everything else in the set.
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It is amazing how many wires go into the operation of that.
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Another question beyond this - were there other custom modifications that could be made to display letters? Of course the word "OVER" on the Showcase podiums comes to mind.
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It looks like 2 extra bulbs would have to be added to display the "V" and "R". I imagine each display had one pin added, along with the extra diodes and wiring to display the appropriate letter. Certainly, these particular eggcrate displays weren't designed for that provision from the factory.
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Another question beyond this - were there other custom modifications that could be made to display letters? Of course the word "OVER" on the Showcase podiums comes to mind.
They're kind of a pain in the rear, but it could be possible. Depends. If the bulbs are there within the displays to spell out the "V" "E" and "R", personally I would just make a new diode matrix for the display.
-Dan
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It looks like 2 extra bulbs would have to be added to display the "V" and "R".
Why would extra bulbs be needed? It's a 7x5 matrix, right? Seems like the letters fit just fine to my eyes.
(https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?q=85&c=sc&poi=face&w=700&h=467&url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.onecms.io%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F13%2F2017%2F02%2F02%2Faaron-paul-price-is-right.jpg)
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There is enough physical space in the display units, but if you take a peek at the first video in this thread again, you'll see that several locations have no bulb or socket. That's true on the two units I purchased as well. They could certainly be added, and I'm sure that's what CBS Electronics did for The Price is Right.
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There is enough physical space in the display units, but if you take a peek at the first video in this thread again, you'll see that several locations have no bulb or socket. That's true on the two units I purchased as well. They could certainly be added, and I'm sure that's what CBS Electronics did for The Price is Right.
Aha, gotcha. I didn't look that closely, and didn't realize you're talking about this one in particular.
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What's the big mystery? They were made by Display Systems, a little company run by the late Ev Penn in the L.A. area.
I had a conversation with Ev shortly before he passed away around 1981. He helped rebuild the Concentration game board and controller when it was shipped from NY to LA. He and Ted Cooper redesigned the controller because on the one used at NBC, "the operator had too much to do". When Ev passed away, I'm told his wife made the readouts used on the second run of Tattletales. I built some readouts using IC's and ROM chips but never got around to designing a diode matrix which would pretty much require a printed circuit board.
The "egg crate" was made of polyurethane impregnated with aluminum powder to make it silver. The holes are 5/8" in diameter. It used 1820 lamps which were very, very bright and gave off a lot of heat. The heat from the lamps used to cause the holes in the polyurethane to deform and come out of round. But they were dependable and simple to drive. Display systems also made a larger dot matrix readout and a seven-segment display which was used on bidders' row and also on Card Sharks. Ron Schwab of Vista Electronics designed his own line of these readouts with square holes and an "egg crate" made of metal. They were used on "Debt".
Nowadays if you wanted that character set you would use a 16x9 monitor and do it all in software. If you just had to have a replica of the Display Systems readouts you could copy the same basic design but use LED's, which are expensive.
Don't forget, Card Sharks had readouts that spelled "BUST".
Display Systems was based in L.A. In New York they used readouts made by American Totalizator for TPIR and Say When!!
With these lamp matrix readouts, you could put them behind a sheet of scrim, paint the scrim any color you wanted and let the light shine through (scrim is a loosely-woven fabric). This was done on the contestant desks on the CBS version of Match Game — one red and one green.
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With these lamp matrix readouts, you could put them behind a sheet of scrim, paint the scrim any color you wanted and let the light shine through (scrim is a loosely-woven fabric). This was done on the contestant desks on the CBS version of Match Game — one red and one green.
Interesting. I always thought it was a translucent type of plastic, or maybe something like a color gel.
Nowadays if you wanted that character set you would use a 16x9 monitor and do it all in software. If you just had to have a replica of the Display Systems readouts you could copy the same basic design but use LED's, which are expensive.
I'm surprised more shows haven't recreated eggcrates or vanes as part of the graphic readouts. I know The Pyramid did in 2012, but that's all I can remember...maybe the most recent Double Dare? LED clocks at least live on through football stadium play clocks.
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I'm surprised more shows haven't recreated eggcrates or vanes as part of the graphic readouts. I know The Pyramid did in 2012, but that's all I can remember...maybe the most recent Double Dare?
Supermarket Sweep's in-studio countdown clock also uses a digital recreation of a vane display.
I believe that Let's Make a Deal uses its monitors to show a recreation of a vane display for some of its timed games, including the one where the contestant must find the key that unlocks the box containing a car key.
The Price Is Right has sometimes attempted to digitally recreate some of its displays when set pieces were rebuilt. The Any Number board is one such example. The Contestants' Row displays are another. When Contestants' Row first went to monitors in 2009, all four monitors displayed white digits on a black background with a colored scrim on top -- I thought it was a really sharp-looking way to combine old and new. In 2011, the design was changed so that the colored background was displayed directly in the monitor with no scrim.
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Oh, I forgot to mention that the front face of the polyurethane mask was painted black. I'm not sure how this was done without getting black paint inside the holes.
A modern approach would be to take a thick slab of white plastic and make holes in it using a 3D printer and paint the face black and use it as the mask, or use a second, thinner layer of black plastic with matching holes. Then you would make a PC board to hold the lamp sockets, diodes and whatever. Use LED's to keep the heat down.
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With these lamp matrix readouts, you could put them behind a sheet of scrim, paint the scrim any color you wanted and let the light shine through (scrim is a loosely-woven fabric). This was done on the contestant desks on the CBS version of Match Game — one red and one green.
Interesting. I always thought it was a translucent type of plastic, or maybe something like a color gel.
Nowadays if you wanted that character set you would use a 16x9 monitor and do it all in software. If you just had to have a replica of the Display Systems readouts you could copy the same basic design but use LED's, which are expensive.
I'm surprised more shows haven't recreated eggcrates or vanes as part of the graphic readouts. I know The Pyramid did in 2012, but that's all I can remember...maybe the most recent Double Dare? LED clocks at least live on through football stadium play clocks.
To further expand, the original Press Your Luck used green, yellow, orange and red scrim for their scoreboards. :)
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With these lamp matrix readouts, you could put them behind a sheet of scrim, paint the scrim any color you wanted and let the light shine through (scrim is a loosely-woven fabric). This was done on the contestant desks on the CBS version of Match Game — one red and one green.
Interesting. I always thought it was a translucent type of plastic, or maybe something like a color gel.
That was my thought before I heard that scrim was used. What surprises me now is that it's painted rather than dyed. I would have guessed that paint didn't let enough light through.
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With these lamp matrix readouts, you could put them behind a sheet of scrim, paint the scrim any color you wanted and let the light shine through (scrim is a loosely-woven fabric). This was done on the contestant desks on the CBS version of Match Game — one red and one green.
Interesting. I always thought it was a translucent type of plastic, or maybe something like a color gel.
That seems like it would make sense, until you consider that gels or acrylic(?) panels could reflect the studio lights at the camera, and scrim doesn't.
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Come to think of it, they may have used colored Plexiglass on Tattletales.
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What's the big mystery? They were made by Display Systems, a little company run by the late Ev Penn in the L.A. area.
I had a conversation with Ev shortly before he passed away around 1981. He helped rebuild the Concentration game board and controller when it was shipped from NY to LA. He and Ted Cooper redesigned the controller because on the one used at NBC, "the operator had too much to do". When Ev passed away, I'm told his wife made the readouts used on the second run of Tattletales. I built some readouts using IC's and ROM chips but never got around to designing a diode matrix which would pretty much require a printed circuit board.
The "egg crate" was made of polyurethane impregnated with aluminum powder to make it silver. The holes are 5/8" in diameter. It used 1820 lamps which were very, very bright and gave off a lot of heat. The heat from the lamps used to cause the holes in the polyurethane to deform and come out of round. But they were dependable and simple to drive. Display systems also made a larger dot matrix readout and a seven-segment display which was used on bidders' row and also on Card Sharks. Ron Schwab of Vista Electronics designed his own line of these readouts with square holes and an "egg crate" made of metal. They were used on "Debt".
Nowadays if you wanted that character set you would use a 16x9 monitor and do it all in software. If you just had to have a replica of the Display Systems readouts you could copy the same basic design but use LED's, which are expensive.
Don't forget, Card Sharks had readouts that spelled "BUST".
Display Systems was based in L.A. In New York they used readouts made by American Totalizator for TPIR and Say When!!
With these lamp matrix readouts, you could put them behind a sheet of scrim, paint the scrim any color you wanted and let the light shine through (scrim is a loosely-woven fabric). This was done on the contestant desks on the CBS version of Match Game — one red and one green.
Thanks for this detailed account, Chris! I enjoy reading about the history of the company and its projects. I may try a panel with scrim attached to see how that looks on the front of the display.
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Come to think of it, they may have used colored Plexiglass on Tattletales.
And TPIR used/uses smoked glass in front of eggcrates in several props, so I think the ability to reflect back isn't necessarily that big a concern.
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The Price Is Right has sometimes attempted to digitally recreate some of its displays when set pieces were rebuilt. The Any Number board is one such example. The Contestants' Row displays are another. When Contestants' Row first went to monitors in 2009, all four monitors displayed white digits on a black background with a colored scrim on top -- I thought it was a really sharp-looking way to combine old and new. In 2011, the design was changed so that the colored background was displayed directly in the monitor with no scrim.
Probably the most obvious example and I forgot. Might need to start taking something for this. :)
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Come to think of it, they may have used colored Plexiglass on Tattletales.
It looks like it would have been colored plexiglass on Narz's Now You See It. If you look closely, you could see the screws used to hold it on.
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Nowadays if you wanted that character set you would use a 16x9 monitor and do it all in software. If you just had to have a replica of the Display Systems readouts you could copy the same basic design but use LED's, which are expensive.
Given that you can buy a 6' string of LED lights that can shine an array of colors for just $10 on Amazon nowadays, I can't imagine the price of LED eggcrates being that prohibitive anymore.
Then again, just for ease of use (not to mention more visual options that go along with computer graphics) there's no reason not just to have stuff on monitors.
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If you want a direct replacement for the 1820 lamps used in the Display Systems units, they are $83.79 for a pack of 20.
The networks can afford that.
https://www.aero-lites.com/product-page/ge-1819-24vdc-eyebrow-instrument-led-replacement-ba9s-base
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Last year, I picked up a pair of 21" 1920x1080 monitors for $100, though, and a network could display two full scores with that, instead of buying lightbulbs for one digit.
It is amazing how the tech has changed over my lifetime. Eggcrates were the smaller, lighter, cost-effective solution back then. CRTs weighed and cost a ton, and they didn't look good on TV a fair bit of the time. I enjoy a purpose-built array of lights for scorekeeping, just as I prefer physical elements in a game show to a big screen that does everything. But as far as practicality, we're well past it.
/Doesn't mean you can just slap Arial up on the screen and call it a day
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Egg-crate displays have been in use on game shows since the the vacuum-tube era of the 1950's. The technology to drive CRT displays didn't exist at the time.
Ev Penn's egg crates can be driven with a simple rotary switch.
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/Doesn't mean you can just slap Arial up on the screen and call it a day
Speak the word, brother.
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/Doesn't mean you can just slap Arial up on the screen and call it a day
Funny You Should Ask would like a word with you.
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/Doesn't mean you can just slap Arial up on the screen and call it a day
Speak the word, brother.
That's right! You slap Impact up on the screen and call it a day!
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For anyone interested in the more technical details of my design, including source code for an ESP8266, watch the Youtube video here. Parts list and source code are in the video's description.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvU50zA4qcU
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When Contestants' Row first went to monitors in 2009, all four monitors displayed white digits on a black background with a colored scrim on top -- I thought it was a really sharp-looking way to combine old and new.
I stopped by the casino the other day, and I think that this same method is being used on roulette tables now. Thinly-woven felt over top of a large TV screen allows the winning numbers to light up, as well as "PLACE YOUR BETS / NO MORE BETS".