The Game Show Forum
The Game Show Forum => The Big Board => Topic started by: JMFabiano on August 16, 2012, 01:22:12 PM
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What do you think were some of the best rule changes?
I'll start with adding the push rule to Perry CS, which carried over to the CBS/syndie '86 version.
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There have been plenty, but the best I can think of is when "Wheel of Fortune" switched to its current "playing for cash" format. It made time for more puzzles, and thus more chances for players to win.
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The first example that came into my head was Jeopardy! removing the limit on win streaks. It was nice to see how far each contestant could go until defeat.
The other example was Classic Concentration going from one-game matches to a "lose two and done" format, since it at least gave contestants a second chance if they ended up playing against a contestant who was extremely lucky/good at the puzzles.
Anthony
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How about "Pyramid"? It used to be that if you lost a game, you were done. Now you get to play both halves and see if you have better luck with the other celebrity.
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"Tattletales" originally had the spouses behind the wall tell stories from just a few cue words by their other half in the audience.
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"Tattletales" originally had the spouses behind the wall tell stories from just a few cue words by their other half in the audience.
Wouldn't this go in the other thread, then?
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The best change I ever saw was Pyramid letting teams decide who would give the clues on their third turn. I actually remember that change. I don't remember the corresponding change in the Winner's Circle, but I'd call it equally good.
Another of my favorites within a single incarnation of a show was TJW changing the rule on triples in the bonus round. If you had (let's say) $850 and spun three $100's, you got $1,000 under the old rules and $1,150 under the new rules.
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Replacing the (often pointless) 3 questions after the last Fame Game in $otC with the Speed Round.
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Thanks for reminding me--adding the $5, $10 and $15 Money Cards to the Fame Game board. Sometimes a player picked the $25 in the first round.
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PDQ: In the pilot, the first team to score ten points. This was dumped when the show became a series, but was kept in the home game. Also, players must start with three letters but not the first three,
Classic Concentration: a player could save a Take for later in the game. A Wild Card revealed three frames.
Scrabble: the daily tournament the producer finally settled upon.
The Gong Show: the contestant would perform for thirty seconds before getting gonged.
High Rollers: Insurance markers could be earned during the competition not just at the Big Numbers.
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Jeopardy! forcing contestants to wait until the entire answer is read, then another split-second. I'm not a fan of interrupting the host.
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I'm not a fan of interrupting the host.
Consider my interest piqued!
On $ale of the Century, I found it integral to the game, and their questions were more-or-less written to the rule. The pacing was such that Jim could neatly finish the question and award the money in one fell swoop. Compare this to Caesars Challenge, where players could (and would) buzz-in as soon as the choices were read, because there was no penalty for a wrong answer, and getting to the board was so much more valuable. It did not make for good television. Later, they instituted some version of waiting for the end of the question.
PYL opened the buzzers at some unspoken point near the end of each question, and was the only show to do that AFAIK. Split Second's first run allowed interruption, another show in which I felt it was natural to the format, and was one of several reasons I felt it trumped the revival.
Would you agree interrupting has its place, or do you not like it everywhere?
-Jason
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Would you agree interrupting has its place, or do you not like it everywhere?
I'm not Brandon, but I do think it depends on the game. I think a decent rule of thumb is that if you can see the question, wait for the host to read it (and allow the director to get a wide shot of all players) then that little bit so someone can signal. This also gives more time to your audience who will get that little piff! of neurochemical for knowing that he beat the contestants on stage to the draw.
Sale of the Century would have been reduced (and that's a very deliberate choice of word) to a Wild Gunman contest more often than not if you had to wait for the end of the question. And that's to say nothing of the Fame Game.
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I'm not a fan of interrupting the host.
Consider my interest piqued!
Would you agree interrupting has its place, or do you not like it everywhere?
I knew I was forgetting something. ;-) The former; on a show like Split Second it definitely made sense, hence the name. IMO, it helped that Tom and Monty still finished the question; you just had to reserve your spot in line fast enough so that you could pick a choice you knew the answer to.
With $ale, it annoyed me, but was forgivable because at least there, you could still hear enough of the question and just had to be fast enough*. I think what irritated me most about Jeopardy! was the fact that contestants buzzed in literally when the card flipped/monitor switched to the response, so you'd have Art/Alex say "This general..." (ding!)
*I was also going to mention this earlier, and since Sale was mentioned, here goes: there was a controversy c. 2005 on Aussie Temptation, where during the speed round, the 3rd place contestant started buzzing in on Every. Single. Question. I don't think she ever answered a single one, but she just wanted to block the champion (who was in 2nd) from going any further. The champ indeed lost, and whoever was in 1st became the new winner. That's not what caused my irritation with the practice, but it was definitely dirty pool in my book.
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*I was also going to mention this earlier, and since Sale was mentioned, here goes: there was a controversy c. 2005 on Aussie Temptation, where during the speed round, the 3rd place contestant starting buzzing in on Every. Single. Question. I don't think she ever answered a single one, but she just wanted to block the champion (who was in 2nd) from going any further. The champ indeed lost, and whoever was in 1st became the new winner. That's not what caused my irritation with the practice, but it was definitely dirty pool in my book.
An interesting coda to that: in the last iteration before Sale became Temptation the player in third at the end of the last Fame Game was excused. That's certainly a way to cut out the kingmaking but on the other hand that last FG segment would be anticlimactic because the player in third not only had to win the question but find some money among the famous faces. One hand gives, the other one takes away.
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"Tattletales" originally had the spouses behind the wall tell stories from just a few cue words by their other half in the audience.
Wouldn't this go in the other thread, then?
I don't think so--the all-quickie format (which wasn't the original format) improved the pacing and structure of the game.
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And I loved the "no opposites" rule change on P+. Some will disagree.
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I don't think so--the all-quickie format improved the game.
Aw, Doug, you were doing so well up to this point. :)
What makes the Quickies version of Tattletales substantively different from Celebrity Newlywed Game?
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The Gong Show: the contestant would perform for thirty seconds before getting gonged.
Technically went from 20 to 30 to 45.
I liked it too, but it helped having a better director (in John Dorsey) who excelled in reaction shots (very few times did Dorsey miss having a camera on a celebrity wielding the mallet).
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Classic Concentration: a player could save a Take for later in the game. A Wild Card revealed three frames.
But first the contestant had to win a pricing perplexity.
Scrabble: the daily tournament the producer finally settled upon.
Whether or not you like the tournament format, the execution was terrible. In the old days matches took as long as they took, and you wouldn't hear the time-up bell when the second crossword game was tied at one each. I wonder if you could get around the time issue by cutting out one of the Scrabble Sprint sections and play 'em both in the same act. Crossword, ad, crossword, ad, Sprint, short ad, Bonus Sprint-close.
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What makes the Quickies version of Tattletales substantively different from Celebrity Newlywed Game?
It doesn't, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in my world. The pacing was much improved--sometimes it took two minutes to get the story and the one or two-word clue. And nine times out of ten, the "right" celebrity mate buzzed in. And inevitably they'd have to repeat the question to get another couple to play.
At least with the all-quickie format, everyone played a minimum of four times. And it allowed the mates who were "on" to stay (instead of having to turn their monitors off) as a part of the round and interact.
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It doesn't, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in my world. The pacing was much improved--sometimes it took two minutes to get the story and the one or two-word clue. And nine times out of ten, the "right" celebrity mate buzzed in. And inevitably they'd have to repeat the question to get another couple to play.
Excellent defense even though I preferred the original idea. What's interesting is that you look at the basic idea (using a clue word to trigger a memory in your partner) really feels Goodson-ish. Like it would have felt contrived if done by just about anyone else with the exception of Bob Stewart.
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Allowing contestants on Greed to interrupt the Terminator question.
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It doesn't, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in my world. The pacing was much improved--sometimes it took two minutes to get the story and the one or two-word clue. And nine times out of ten, the "right" celebrity mate buzzed in. And inevitably they'd have to repeat the question to get another couple to play.
Excellent defense even though I preferred the original idea. What's interesting is that you look at the basic idea (using a clue word to trigger a memory in your partner) really feels Goodson-ish. Like it would have felt contrived if done by just about anyone else with the exception of Bob Stewart.
I can't argue with that. I'm just not sure how the pacing could have been improved with that format, though.
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I'll chime in with a thought on Tattletales: I agree with what both sides have presented, but I preferred the original format of stories and quickies. To me, it added more variety to the game. The all-quickie format got a bit repetitive after a while.
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Shopping from Wheel is a good answer. I've got two more from Wheel:
Ditching "Buy a Vowel" early on was a good move. (Why did they even have it if you could buy a vowel at your discretion anyway?)
I also think the Toss-Ups were a great addition. They add 3 more puzzles per show, and they distribute the control a little more evenly. Previously, it was red-yellow-blue-red. This meant that red had a slight advantage by getting to start two rounds, and often yellow as well. And even then, sixth rounds were rare.
Granted, the Prize Puzzle often imbalances things unless someone gets lucky on $3,500 or nabs the $10,000 mystery prize, but one problem at a time.
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And I loved the "no opposites" rule change on P+. Some will disagree.
For me, it's a case of "great idea, wrong version." I think this rule would have worked better on the CBS or ABC versions, where there were no puzzles. When it came to "Password Plus," it was no fun to watch them try to give four (or sometimes six, in earlier days) non-opposite clues for a word like SISTER. If one of the non-puzzle versions had the same rule, I doubt SISTER, WRONG, and such words would have been used in the first place.
Brendan
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When it came to "Password Plus," it was no fun to watch them try to give four (or sometimes six, in earlier days) non-opposite clues for a word like SISTER.
Why is it fun for a team to retain control of the game by intoning "Brother" properly and swishing the layup?
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And I loved the "no opposites" rule change on P+. Some will disagree.
My objection to it was that it could be a little confusing. There's an episode I just watched recently where they completely hold up the game because Bill Anderson couldn't understand why "Husband" and "Wife" were considered opposites, but "Adam" and "Eve" weren't. I also recall an Alphabetics where "Nail" was the password and David Letterman, IIRC, kept saying "screw" over and over again and hesitating when he tried to say anything else. My theory was he wasn't sure if "hammer" was an opposite.
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non-opposite clues for a word like SISTER. If one of the non-puzzle versions had the same rule, I doubt SISTER, WRONG, and such words would have been used in the first place.
Sibling, Female. If you feel lucky, give it in one. If you feel unlucky, pass, and hope the other team blows it.
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Ditching "Buy a Vowel" early on was a good move. (Why did they even have it if you could buy a vowel at your discretion anyway?)
Hypothesis time... Maybe the powers that be considered Buy a Vowel to be a quasi-penalty since a player had to forfeit $250 and pick a vowel. (Imagine that someone is trying to fill in the last letter of the puzzle. The person lands on Buy a Vowel and is forced to buy a U. It's Lose a Turn and -$250.) If the player had under $250, it was essentially a Lose a Turn.
For those who remember the Buy a Vowel era since, was the tone for "no more vowels" used and was the Buy a Vowel wedge removed, or at least considered null and void?
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For those who remember the Buy a Vowel era since, was the tone for "no more vowels" used and was the Buy a Vowel wedge removed, or at least considered null and void?
There was never a sound for "no more vowels" until they starte doing the "no more vowels" chyron in the late 2000s. The only vowel-related SFX back then would've been the beeps when nothing but vowels remained in the puzzle.
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When it came to "Password Plus," it was no fun to watch them try to give four (or sometimes six, in earlier days) non-opposite clues for a word like SISTER.
Why is it fun for a team to retain control of the game by intoning "Brother" properly and swishing the layup?
Why is fun to watch a puzzle have to be thrown out on the fifth word because they couldn't give opposites as clues?
Besides, the player didn't always think of the opposite right away. In "Super Password," off the top of my head, I can think of instances where the player didn't use the opposite for STRONG, BOY, or LIGHT. By contrast, I've also seen instances where the perfect opposite was given and the player didn't respond with the right answer.
To me, the use of opposites was one of the things that signalled a good player who understood one of the basic strategies of the game: first, does the opposite occur to you; two, will you know to say it with the proper intonation? I've seen players give the perfect opposite without using the proper inflection, and their partners usually didn't get the correct answer.
Again, to me, it's a good idea, but not in a puzzle format.
Brendan
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Why is fun to watch a puzzle have to be thrown out on the fifth word because they couldn't give opposites as clues?
Ideally, the fifth word should not be a word that you need an opposite to get. And going through and rewatching the 1979 P+ eps with my family, I don't think there's been one fifth word not guessed because they couldn't give an opposite. There have been fifth words not guessed, but not because there was an obvious opposite that could've been used and wasn't.
Another good P+ rule change--whoever gets the password keeps the option (took effect with the Monty Hall/Janet Lennon week--and unlike the "no opposites" change, this one was made without any fanfare).
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For those who remember the Buy a Vowel era since, was the tone for "no more vowels" used and was the Buy a Vowel wedge removed, or at least considered null and void?
I don't remember there being any audible signal (except maybe Nancy Jones telling Chuck from offstage) when there were no more vowels. I don't think the wedge could be "removed" any more than the "Bankrupt" wedges could. I do remember a beeping signal in the early episodes after about 30 seconds into the "final spin of the day" round to indicate that you could start guessing vowels.
As for what rules changes I consider good:
Adding the bonus round for the day's winner on Wheel.
The Double Showcase Winner rule on TPIR.
The $100,000 Mystery Tune on mid-1970s syndicated Name That Tune. (I was not as big a fan of the tournament format.)
On The Moneymaze, adding the "second tower" option and having all four players play the head-to-head rounds rather than leaving somebody in the maze.
On Las Vegas Gambit, switching from the prize board to the Big Numbers. I would have considered this a bad change on the CBS version, but the NBC version didn't seem to have any good recurring prizes (for example, Anniversary Dinner - this week, it's Rome, Copenhagen, and (audience join in) Burbank!).
NBC Card Sharks - in addition to the push rule, allowing the player to change cards in the Money Cards at the beginning of each level rather than just at the start.
Pretty much everything on The Joker's Wild that led to the rules and bonus round most people remember. (In the first two weeks, a triple was $150, and three jokers won the game automatically; also, after each win, you had to decide whether to stop and leave the show, or risk your cash winnings if you lost your next game.)
On Celebrity Sweepstakes, moving the starting amount from $20 to $50. With $20, most players would start with a $5 bet as missing a $10 bet would force them to bet $2 on their next turn.
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With $ale, it annoyed me, but was forgivable because at least there, you could still hear enough of the question and just had to be fast enough*. I think what irritated me most about Jeopardy! was the fact that contestants buzzed in literally when the card flipped/monitor switched to the response, so you'd have Art/Alex say "This general..." (ding!)
Which is likely why the lockout to keep contestants from buzzing in until Alex finishes reading the question was instituted. Toward the end of the original Jeopardy run )(especially in the syndicated episodes), contestants were buzzing in immediately upon the reveal, before they could possibly have read the question, much less Art Fleming.
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For those who remember the Buy a Vowel era since, was the tone for "no more vowels" used and was the Buy a Vowel wedge removed, or at least considered null and void?
I don't remember there being any audible signal (except maybe Nancy Jones telling Chuck from offstage) when there were no more vowels. I don't think the wedge could be "removed" any more than the "Bankrupt" wedges could. I do remember a beeping signal in the early episodes after about 30 seconds into the "final spin of the day" round to indicate that you could start guessing vowels.
Which leaves me wondering: did they even have an "only vowels remain" sound in the early days? Did they even have a Used Letter Board*? And if Buy A Vowel did change its rules later on, as the Milton-Bradley games claim, what did that mean in regard to "only vowels remain" (a rule not present in those games)?
(* I remember seeing a picture of Susan in front of a chalkboard that was clearly the lower part of the Used Letter Board, but none of the flip-up letters were present on top.)
Ditching "Buy a Vowel" early on was a good move. (Why did they even have it if you could buy a vowel at your discretion anyway?)
Hypothesis time... Maybe the powers that be considered Buy a Vowel to be a quasi-penalty since a player had to forfeit $250 and pick a vowel. (Imagine that someone is trying to fill in the last letter of the puzzle. The person lands on Buy a Vowel and is forced to buy a U. It's Lose a Turn and -$250.) If the player had under $250, it was essentially a Lose a Turn.
See, that's what I thought about the wedge -- a quasi-penalty that, keeping with the "shopping" theme of the first 14 years, I can only liken to the "impulse buy".
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With $ale, it annoyed me, but was forgivable because at least there, you could still hear enough of the question and just had to be fast enough*. I think what irritated me most about Jeopardy! was the fact that contestants buzzed in literally when the card flipped/monitor switched to the response, so you'd have Art/Alex say "This general..." (ding!)
Which is likely why the lockout to keep contestants from buzzing in until Alex finishes reading the question was instituted. Toward the end of the original Jeopardy run )(especially in the syndicated episodes), contestants were buzzing in immediately upon the reveal, before they could possibly have read the question, much less Art Fleming.
I remember the first time I saw a first season Trebek episode, I actually thought the "ding" was a reveal sound for the clues at first. Everyone was ringing in as soon as the monitor changed.
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Shenanigans second season: Swapping out Auctioneer, which really wasn't an auction at all, for Haunted House.
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Another good minor rule change in "Greed" towards the end of the run: dropping the qualifying round. It was very incongruous to the main game, and helped get more of the main game in each episode--desperately needed given the show's glacial pace.
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Another good minor rule change in "Greed" towards the end of the run: dropping the qualifying round. It was very incongruous to the main game, and helped get more of the main game in each episode--desperately needed given the show's glacial pace.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that done just for the May (and possibly February) Sweeps promotions? The three games with college players (Ivy League, Pac-10, and Big 10, wasn't it?) still had the qualifying round.
Speaking of Greed, there's another rule change I liked; allowing Terminator questions to be interrupted.
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What makes the Quickies version of Tattletales substantively different from Celebrity Newlywed Game?
It doesn't, but that's not necessarily a bad thing in my world. The pacing was much improved--sometimes it took two minutes to get the story and the one or two-word clue. And nine times out of ten, the "right" celebrity mate buzzed in. And inevitably they'd have to repeat the question to get another couple to play.
At least with the all-quickie format, everyone played a minimum of four times. And it allowed the mates who were "on" to stay (instead of having to turn their monitors off) as a part of the round and interact.
This is almost a separate point, but G-T's "comeback" was helped by taking ideas that were originally theirs - TPIR, Match Game, Tattletales (He Said, She Said) and infusing elements of shows that were doing great for other production companies - the minigames idea from Let's Make a Deal, the large group of celebrities doing comedy idea from Hollywood Squares, and the ask one spouse a question, then see if the other matches from Newlywed Game. And since most of these originated well before their respective revival "inspirations," there was little threat of lawsuits.
Likewise, I would suspect the enhanced profile of Lacey Pemberton and Susannah Williams on the 1986-1989 Card Sharks was likely a direct response to Vanna White's popularity. Heck, before that, I don't think G-T even miked the models/dealers/assistants.
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Likewise, I would suspect the enhanced profile of Lacey Pemberton and Susannah Williams on the 1986-1989 Card Sharks was likely a direct response to Vanna White's popularity. Heck, before that, I don't think G-T even miked the models/dealers/assistants.
I tend to think of Barker and his Beauties as well. When did that start relative to CS86 and the rise of Vanna?